poachers Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 I used paypal to sell an airsoft gun which after 4 weeks the buyer wasn't happy with so paypal refunded them the money in the process of them doing this the buyer had 4 weeks to check over the item etc how ever they buyer sent the item back to me but sent it to a totally different address which was over 100 miles away from me but paypal still refunded the buyer even we prove I haven't received the item and paypal knew this as they had seen where the item was tracked to … they then go along the lines of telling me to phone the parcel company and chase it myself which I cant do as I never sent the parcel … then they say the sale of airsoft guns is not permitted so now im the money down and the airsoft item I sent I have neither so others just be aware when using paypal your not actually covered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Tackle Posted December 11, 2019 Supporters Share Posted December 11, 2019 That's a whole new low in the PayPal "rif" debacle, surely as theyve now admitted to you that rifs aren't covered, they were wrong to refund the guy & should be returning your money to you & clawing it back from the buyer. Explain to them that quite literally "two wrongs don't make a right", as appears to be their mindset here ?. Good luck & thanks for making us aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Hmmmmm, you sure this isn’t kippers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitmanNo2 Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Who brought it to Paypal's attention that the item in question was a RIF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 PayPal updated their t&c’s years ago https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/what-is-paypal’s-policy-on-transactions-that-involve-firearms-faq585 Specifically, air soft guns are allowed IF they are allowed in your country (very last paragraph, couldn’t be clearer), Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 1 hour ago, poachers said: I used paypal to sell an airsoft gun which after 4 weeks the buyer wasn't happy with so paypal refunded them the money in the process of them doing this the buyer had 4 weeks to check over the item etc how ever they buyer sent the item back to me but sent it to a totally different address which was over 100 miles away from me but paypal still refunded the buyer even we prove I haven't received the item and paypal knew this as they had seen where the item was tracked to … they then go along the lines of telling me to phone the parcel company and chase it myself which I cant do as I never sent the parcel … then they say the sale of airsoft guns is not permitted so now im the money down and the airsoft item I sent I have neither so others just be aware when using paypal your not actually covered As @rocketdogbert has shown in the link, PayPals policy does permit payment for airsoft guns (where legal) and PayPal have acted within their policy of providing buyer protection and refund of to them. Where the gun was sold could be a different matter, such as eBay restrictions. Was the PayPal resolution centre used, and why was the gun returned to some other address? The main issues are where is the gun/who has it, and what can be done to resolve that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poachers Posted December 11, 2019 Author Share Posted December 11, 2019 33 minutes ago, Tommikka said: As @rocketdogbert has shown in the link, PayPals policy does permit payment for airsoft guns (where legal) and PayPal have acted within their policy of providing buyer protection and refund of to them. Where the gun was sold could be a different matter, such as eBay restrictions. Was the PayPal resolution centre used, and why was the gun returned to some other address? The main issues are where is the gun/who has it, and what can be done to resolve that the rif was sold on a site which allowed the sale of airsoft items paypal resoloution was open as they opened a case but the case favours the buyer as it doesn't let me open a case after they close I have no idea where the item is or who has it as far as paypal is concerned its been delivered but not to me it hasn't so im kind of stuck as of what to do next 47 minutes ago, rocketdogbert said: PayPal updated their t&c’s years ago https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/what-is-paypal’s-policy-on-transactions-that-involve-firearms-faq585 Specifically, air soft guns are allowed IF they are allowed in your country (very last paragraph, couldn’t be clearer), thank you I will be in contact with them again tomorrow so show them this 53 minutes ago, hitmanNo2 said: Who brought it to Paypal's attention that the item in question was a RIF? the buyer or it was linked to the address where the item was sold 1 hour ago, rocketdogbert said: Hmmmmm, you sure this isn’t kippers? ? kippers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 15 minutes ago, poachers said: ? kippers? I’ve bought and sold many RIF’s, and obviously therefore had a few PP issues. Never once, either buying or selling, have PP ever completed a refund until confirmation of the item being delivered to the registered PP address has been received. Kippers are the fishiest things I know, I’m certain there is more to this than you have already said. PP would not have refunded the buyer, in my years and years of experience using them, and not just for airsoft, unless proof of delivery had been provided. Admittedly, it gets complicated when people send you back bricks and you sign for something without first checking what’s in the box, but generally that doesn’t happen. Think logically, the world is full of scammers, they could easily post anything back to to one of their mates, not the correct address, get a refund and the item. If PP allowed that to happen, they would very quickly lose their trusted status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 There’s no particular come back with PayPal and the RIF being a RIF is irrelevant. (If RIF transactions were not permitted then both buyer & seller protection would not apply, if RIF transactions are legal (which they are in the UK) then RIF transactions are permitted on PayPal and both buyer & seller protection applies. The default is to side with the buyer) Its a valid transaction that can be refunded - other than a complaints process that the buyer has failed to return the RIF and therefore failed to comply with the terms of the refund. If there’s any sniff of fraud, such as the buyer giving a random tracking reference just to show that something has been sent somewhere then there is a case to be referred to the police. Your beef is with the buyer, they possibly don’t care much, but you have a claim against them to explain why it was sent to the wrong address and the potential to go for losses under the small claims court etc It has been sent to someone, at the very least the buyer can identify where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitmanNo2 Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 Ah. I didn't know Paypal was officially cool with airsoft now. That's good. That makes this even weirder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poachers Posted December 12, 2019 Author Share Posted December 12, 2019 10 hours ago, rocketdogbert said: I’ve bought and sold many RIF’s, and obviously therefore had a few PP issues. Never once, either buying or selling, have PP ever completed a refund until confirmation of the item being delivered to the registered PP address has been received. Kippers are the fishiest things I know, I’m certain there is more to this than you have already said. PP would not have refunded the buyer, in my years and years of experience using them, and not just for airsoft, unless proof of delivery had been provided. Admittedly, it gets complicated when people send you back bricks and you sign for something without first checking what’s in the box, but generally that doesn’t happen. Think logically, the world is full of scammers, they could easily post anything back to to one of their mates, not the correct address, get a refund and the item. If PP allowed that to happen, they would very quickly lose their trusted status. There’s nothing more to this story than I’ve stated I respect the buyers protection but the fact I have neither the Airsoft gun or money is worrying in fact I’m more down as I’m also x amount of of pocket .. the item was delivered to Liverpool I’m in Bedfordshire clearly shows this on the company’s website but PayPal have ignored this and issued a refund to the buyer either way and have basically told me to sort it ... is this a gap in the protection and could this be a new way of scamming as at the min I’m fighting to get either one back if I had the item back I wouldn’t mind as much but the fact I don’t and I’ve gotta pay for it myself I would of been better of giving it away 😂🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobHedley Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 Paypal aren't always right with the way they resolve problems and do tend to just refund the buyer without thinking or checking. I sold a mini milling machine for £900 and the guy paid for it using PayPal. It was delivered a few days later yet the guy claimed he never got it. I had confirmation that the parcel had been signed for and was delivered to the address it was intended. As is always the case, you couldn't read the signature and the buyer claimed it was never delivered. He raised a case, he was paid back within 3 days and I was told to speak to the couriers. The couriers stated that they had delivered it to the correct address etc. I lost out on £900. The annoying thing was the guy ran a bike repair company and he posted a photo on Facebook of some work he did, which was obviously done on a milling machine, with the milling machine I sold him in the background. And still neither PayPal or the Couriers could care less when presented with this evidence. That being said I have had it work in my favour when I bought something faulty and I got refunded really quickly (I did send it back but I was refunded before I did) but that was a while ago so maybe they have toughened up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Adolf Hamster Posted December 12, 2019 Supporters Share Posted December 12, 2019 52 minutes ago, RobHedley said: Paypal aren't always right with the way they resolve problems and do tend to just refund the buyer without thinking or checking. I sold a mini milling machine for £900 and the guy paid for it using PayPal. It was delivered a few days later yet the guy claimed he never got it. I had confirmation that the parcel had been signed for and was delivered to the address it was intended. As is always the case, you couldn't read the signature and the buyer claimed it was never delivered. He raised a case, he was paid back within 3 days and I was told to speak to the couriers. The couriers stated that they had delivered it to the correct address etc. I lost out on £900. The annoying thing was the guy ran a bike repair company and he posted a photo on Facebook of some work he did, which was obviously done on a milling machine, with the milling machine I sold him in the background. And still neither PayPal or the Couriers could care less when presented with this evidence. That being said I have had it work in my favour when I bought something faulty and I got refunded really quickly (I did send it back but I was refunded before I did) but that was a while ago so maybe they have toughened up now. sounds to me like a small claims story that. ultimately there's always an element of trust buying/selling secondhand. it's why i tend to stick to forums if i can't go buy in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted December 12, 2019 Supporters Share Posted December 12, 2019 15 hours ago, rocketdogbert said: PayPal updated their t&c’s years ago https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/what-is-paypal’s-policy-on-transactions-that-involve-firearms-faq585 Specifically, air soft guns are allowed IF they are allowed in your country (very last paragraph, couldn’t be clearer), Nice find, thanks. Strictly speaking though, it's always an offence to sell a RIF in the UK. True, there's a defence to it. But can OP produce one, and does that make it "legal" by PayPal's definition? Extreme example, but duress is a general defence, so you could claim that it's "legal" to sell a real gun to someone if you can prove that they were holding it to your head at the time. Anyway, PayPal can do one for selling. I'd always choose to use it as a buyer, but never for something that I couldn't afford to write off as a seller, for exactly this reason: they're unregulated and can make the rules up as they go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitmanNo2 Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 A few years I threatened Paypal with small claims and I got my money back when a RIF never turned and that was a dodgy seller. Seeing as Paypal have messed up here I imagine it shouldn't be too hard to get a refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommikka Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 Call PayPal as well - 0800-358-7911 Most of the steps are automated, and even if using a chat you could be discussing with a bot. Make notes of the points and on the phone you can ensure the person on the other side is reading the details of each step that has taken place. The mystery address needs some explaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steveocee Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 The buyer has quite clearly given you either an incorrect or made up tracking number hence why the delivery address is not yours. I'll guarantee that your RIF is not at that address. If the buyer was to return the RIF to you, where did this random 3rd party address come from? The only thing you can do is speak to Paypal in this instance, yes the buyer likely has your money and RIF but Paypal are the go between. Get on the phone to them, speak to a human and try to convey the series of events in an accurate and impersonal way as possible. You have my sympathies but I'm fairly sure that with a bit of fire in your belly you can resolve the issue of your money, then to make yourself feel better name and shame the buyer 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poachers Posted December 12, 2019 Author Share Posted December 12, 2019 I’ve got paper trails left right and center always email and screen shot the conversations worst thing is if even got PayPal admitting the address it went to so they know the exact address .. in future I won’t be sending any more items only collection way to much grief I offered the buyer to collect as he was only 45 mins away from me but he didn’t have the time so that to me says he knows Liverpool isn’t my address ... I’ve spoke to PayPal they have reopened the case three times and each time closed in his favour when I have more than enough evidence so I think my only option is try once more then go to small claims Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitmanNo2 Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 I assume you've asked how it's OK for the buyer to return it to a completely random address? What was their response? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Rogerborg Posted December 12, 2019 Supporters Share Posted December 12, 2019 28 minutes ago, poachers said: I’ve spoke to PayPal On the phone? Harder for someone to actually say the words "Yeah, we know it's not your address, but we don't care" to your face (or your ear) than for them to just hit the "resolved" button on a form in the 30 seconds that they've got allocated for each case. I loathe using the phone, but sometimes it is the best option to get things resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poachers Posted December 12, 2019 Author Share Posted December 12, 2019 On the phone they just say it needs to be an open case so they open a case and bam 2 days later it’s closed again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Tackle Posted December 12, 2019 Supporters Share Posted December 12, 2019 19 minutes ago, poachers said: On the phone they just say it needs to be an open case so they open a case and bam 2 days later it’s closed again Sorry bud, & no offence to any members of an " Asian persuasion", but whenever I've had to call PayPal I get a far East type call center, & while the staff are very polite, they're often bordering on thick as shit, every aspect of your call being explained to them, yet they just don't get it, too busy being polite lol. You need to speak to someone from PayPal who's in the UK, & explain that this situation they've left you in is absurd & unacceptable, & probably illegal, & as a PayPal user you are as equally entitled to "protection" as the buyer. The buyer entered in to a contract with the carrier he chose to use returning the rif to you, so it's down to him to sort, PayPal are aware it wasn't delivered to your account address, which must be an infringement of their t&C's ?. The whole thing screams of an unprofessional fuck up & the last person to pay the price shouldn't be you, get slightly "harsh" with them & I'm sure commonsense will prevail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitmanNo2 Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 Yup. It does scream of dealing with people that...aren't very knowledgeable. Telling you to deal with the courier? Lol. A courier won't give the recipient any information, only the sender. Just keep working your way up until you can speak to someone that doesn't get their responses from a flowchart. Or you could go straight to 100 and and contact the Paypal UK MD. Worked for me when I e-mailed Tim Cook with a problem that his moron employees wouldn't fix. https://ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-10403&c=PayPal UK-Managing Director Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 51 minutes ago, hitmanNo2 said: Or you could go straight to 100 and and contact the Paypal UK MD. Worked for me when I e-mailed Tim Cook with a problem that his moron employees wouldn't fix. https://ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-10403&c=PayPal UK-Managing Director I thoroughly recommend this, I work for a massive multinational, and the absolute best way to get anything done is to email the CEO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poachers Posted December 12, 2019 Author Share Posted December 12, 2019 3 hours ago, hitmanNo2 said: I assume you've asked how it's OK for the buyer to return it to a completely random address? What was their response? yes of course they just basically say there pass it on and open a case but that's al they ever do and then it gets shut down in a day or 2 and im back to square one 2 hours ago, hitmanNo2 said: Yup. It does scream of dealing with people that...aren't very knowledgeable. Telling you to deal with the courier? Lol. A courier won't give the recipient any information, only the sender. Just keep working your way up until you can speak to someone that doesn't get their responses from a flowchart. Or you could go straight to 100 and and contact the Paypal UK MD. Worked for me when I e-mailed Tim Cook with a problem that his moron employees wouldn't fix. https://ceoemail.com/s.php?id=ceo-10403&c=PayPal UK-Managing Director this is my next point of call thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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