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_Piz

Help! IF came as RIF

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Hallo!

 

I Bought a Classic Army M16A1 a few days ago for my 18th

 

The item came about 30 minutes ago and rather than coming Two-toned it came as a RIF.

 

I do not have a UKARA currently and the airsoft store did not ask me for a valid defense.

 

Also my mother is freaking out thinking that i've broken the law and since shes my taxi for going to games, she is refusing to take me (Because I apprently lied to her about it being a IF).

 

Could you guys tell her the facts about my situation and put her mind at ease?

 

Thanks!

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She just called me a manipulative lier and had a go at me lmao.

10 minutes ago, jcheeseright said:

You haven't broken the law.  The retailer has, but that's not your problem. 

 

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Yep, tell mum to calm down, I've seen 10 year olds running around sites with RIF's & no one bats an eyelid, & as long as you transport it in a suitable secure bag etc, plod will care even less.

I reckon you've had a great result 👍

2 minutes ago, _Piz said:

She just called me a manipulative lier and had a go at me lmao.

 

Well you are a little shit but then most 18 year olds are 😛

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Dont worry about the law you are fine.

 

But you gotta keep your mum sweet! Explain that you havnt lied to her nor did you lie to the shop. Say something like you know the importance of obeying the law. It may be worth showing her UKAPU's faq page to 1) reassure her of you not breaking the law 2) that you take it seriously.

 

- check email for order confirmation as it may include a note about two toning. 

 

- explain that the seller may have technically broken the law but you havn't 

 

- not only that you are legally allowed to own it, you are also legally allowed to paint a two tone into... not a two tone.

 

But my advice is.. give her a chance to cool down. Then next time you are in town go to boots or super drug for bath bombs or something

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5 minutes ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

you are also legally allowed to paint a two tone into... not a two tone.

 

What are you talking about. You can't backup this up with any evidence. 

 

To OP only you know how best to talk to your mother but you haven't done anything wrong you are 18 so the laws are only the responsibility of the retailer/seller not the customer. Why are you buying two tone anyway ? 

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On 30/10/2019 at 14:15, Rogerborg said:

Pics of RIF and mum required.

 

As above, you're fine, as long as it was a GB seller.

 

The relevant legislation is the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006.  Two sections are relevant: 36 and 40.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/36

 

36 Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

(b) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

(c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

 

That it.  There is no offence of purchasing or attempting to purchase a realistic imitation firearm, nor of possessing one in private.  Nothing requires you to two-tone it.

 

The Firearms Act 1989 S19 offence of possession in public does not distinguish between realistic and non-realistic, and the same "reasonable excuse" applies to either - you're on your way to or from an airsoft skirmish in your hot mum's taxi.

 

The other issue is age: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/38/section/40

 

40 Supplying imitation firearms to minors

(1) After section 24 of the 1968 Act insert—
“24A Supplying imitation firearms to minors

(1) It is an offence for a person under the age of eighteen to purchase an imitation firearm.

(2) It is an offence to sell an imitation firearm to a person under the age of eighteen.

 

Again, no distinction between realistic or not realistic.  As long as you (or your saucy mum) were at least 18 when you made the purchase, no problem.

 

Out of interest, who sold it to you?

 

I showed her the VCRA and shes chill now.

 

I guess a win-win? I get a RiF and a happy mother 

On 30/10/2019 at 14:18, Musica said:

 

What are you talking about. You can't backup this up with any evidence. 

 

To OP only you know how best to talk to your mother but you haven't done anything wrong you are 18 so the laws are only the responsibility of the retailer/seller not the customer. Why are you buying two tone anyway ? 

I got a but sick and had to redo my 3 games so i deciede to suck it  with a two-tone.

 

Not the best option but i guess i got a RIF in the end xP

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1 hour ago, Musica said:

 

What are you talking about. You can't backup this up with any evidence. 

 

 

I really cba to give this a proper answer as its so, so basic but read the UKAPU faq as its the best plain english resource and if you feeling brave the actual legislation including the SI.

 

 

 

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All is good

 

(As long as you / the purchaser was 18 at the time of purchase then no offence has been committed)

 

As your intent is to play airsoft skirmishing at insured sites then the seller has committed no offence by sending a RIF.

What they do not have is recognised evidence to justify the provision of a RIF if they were asked to do so

 

 

 

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46 minutes ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

 

I really cba to give this a proper answer

 

Then don't spread misinformation if your not able to back it up. This discussion comes up on the forum all the time and anyone who paints their IF to a RIF IS committing an offence. There is more to it than that but your statement is wrong. 

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19 minutes ago, Musica said:

 

Then don't spread misinformation if your not able to back it up. This discussion comes up on the forum all the time and anyone who paints their IF to a RIF IS committing an offence. There is more to it than that but your statement is wrong. 

 

 You know exactly what i mean. Im trying to be helpful, you are just trying to score points in a game with no winners. Join a debating club - better use of your time. I wont waste any more of mine! 

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41 minutes ago, Musica said:

 

This discussion comes up on the forum all the time and anyone who paints their IF to a RIF IS committing an offence.

Yes, but they also have a legal defense to committing said offense.

 

If you want to keep literal, every single vendor selling RIFs to anyone with a defense is technically still committing an offense. Yet, I doubt you'd disagree with me saying that it's legal for FireSupport to sell me a RIF.

 

 

E: Just to explain things a little better:

 

36 Manufacture, import and sale of realistic imitation firearms

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if—

(a) he manufactures a realistic imitation firearm;

(b) he modifies an imitation firearm so that it becomes a realistic imitation firearm;

(c) he sells a realistic imitation firearm; or

(d) he brings a realistic imitation firearm into Great Britain or causes one to be brought into Great Britain.

 

^^^^ Legal explanation - anyone who sells, builds, imports, or converts a RIF is explicitly committing an offense - Section 36 of the VCRA 2006 ^^^^

 

Defences to an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act

 

3.—(1) It shall be a defence in proceedings for an offence under section 36 of the 2006 Act or under paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 to that Act for the person charged with the offence to show that his conduct was for the purpose only of making the imitation firearm in question available for one or more of the purposes specified in paragraph (2).

 

(2)Those purposes are—

(a) 2006 c.38. 2(a)the organisation and holding of permitted activities for which public liability insurance is held in relation to liabilities to third parties arising from or in connection with the organisation and holding of those activities;

(b)the purposes of display at a permitted event.

 

^^^^ Legal explanation - despite committing an offense, you have a defense against committing the offense if you can show that you were importing, converting, selling or building a RIF specifically to attend an Airsoft game held at an insured site - The Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (Realistic Imitation Firearms) Regulations 2007 ^^^^

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39 minutes ago, DrAlexanderTobacco said:

Yes, but they also have a legal defense to committing said offense.

Do they? If they book a game and never attend are they now committing a crime? Perhaps their intent when painting was to attend a game but after painting decided against it but luckily they painted it while intending to go a registered airsoft site so they have a defence and no longer need one because  there is no issue with owning a RIF that they now have.

 

These defences are not going to stop someone  getting arrested. As far as I am aware they can be arrested and then they present the defence in court but this has yet to happen so the judge could rule either way as it's very wishy washy and hard to  prove that you were going to attend an airsoft site.  Now is it likely you would be arrested? No in all honesty if you transport it in a bag and never have it on show in public view then your probably fine.

 

Say you do get caught somehow it's not like any criminal intends to get caught it happens occasionally the police get lucky then how would the police know it used to be a two tone anyway? How do they prove you painted it? Perhaps OP gets lifted for having his RIF out in public shooting at the local Zumba class for a laugh then they check his order and see it was an order for a two  tone gun but wait his gun isn't two tone. What an awful mess I bet the retailer won't own up to not painting it as that would be an offence for them to sell the RIF to someone without a defence so now how does OP prove he didn't paint it? 

 

I get it seems like I am splitting hairs but people should have all the information and make an informed decision instead of being told it's alright we aren't hurting anybody or  it's "legal" we have a "license". 

 

 

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2 hours ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

but read the UKAPU faq

 

Thanks, I have.  Which part applies to a chap who's just busted out a "Been sick, couldn't play enough" excuse that sounds dodgier than Dodgy the Dodgeball dodging the dodgems on national Dodgeballs Dodging Dogdems day?

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^ I can easily see someone who cant drive having a hard time making ukara. I dont even have a ukara and i play about... 1.5 times a month, ish. In any case its irrelevent as its already a RIF! I suppose you could flag this thread to the police if you are that concerned.

 

In anycase - I was speaking in plain english rather then legalese to help a guy reassure his mum. Nothing more nothing less. This is so so pointless.

 

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1 minute ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

^ I can easily see someone who cant drive having a hard time making ukara. I dont even have a ukara and i play about... 1.5 times a month, ish. In any case its irrelevent as its already a RIF! I suppose you could flag this thread to the police if you are that concerned.

 

In anycase - I was speaking in plain english rather then legalese to help a guy reassure his mum. Nothing more nothing less. This is so so pointless.

 

The UKARA as a retailers association were less concerned about the potential occasional player who would not be able to make up the games to meet the criteria, but were more concerned about keeping an activity legal, staying in business and avoiding fines of £1000 to £5000 per transaction

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9 minutes ago, Tommikka said:

The UKARA as a retailers association were less concerned about the potential occasional player who would not be able to make up the games to meet the criteria, but were more concerned about keeping an activity legal, staying in business and avoiding fines of £1000 to £5000 per transaction

 

That makes complete sense and i hope i didnt come across as anti UKARA. In my case i've just prioritised skirmishing at a variety of places rather then getting a UKARA to buy another rif. As it happens the one place i've been to 3x over a 5 month period isnt a UKARA site. Sods law!

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2 hours ago, Musica said:

Do they? If they book a game and never attend are they now committing a crime? Perhaps their intent when painting was to attend a game but after painting decided against it but luckily they painted it while intending to go a registered airsoft site so they have a defence and no longer need one because  there is no issue with owning a RIF that they now have.

 

These defences are not going to stop someone  getting arrested. As far as I am aware they can be arrested and then they present the defence in court but this has yet to happen so the judge could rule either way as it's very wishy washy and hard to  prove that you were going to attend an airsoft site.  Now is it likely you would be arrested? No in all honesty if you transport it in a bag and never have it on show in public view then your probably fine.

 

Say you do get caught somehow it's not like any criminal intends to get caught it happens occasionally the police get lucky then how would the police know it used to be a two tone anyway? How do they prove you painted it? Perhaps OP gets lifted for having his RIF out in public shooting at the local Zumba class for a laugh then they check his order and see it was an order for a two  tone gun but wait his gun isn't two tone. What an awful mess I bet the retailer won't own up to not painting it as that would be an offence for them to sell the RIF to someone without a defence so now how does OP prove he didn't paint it? 

 

I get it seems like I am splitting hairs but people should have all the information and make an informed decision instead of being told it's alright we aren't hurting anybody or  it's "legal" we have a "license". 

 

 

I think we can both agree that the legislation is bollocks and was hastily written - ultimately I'm glad a rough framework was at least enshrined in law, because when this was originally being drafted iirc there was no exemption in place for Airsofters and the sport/hobby was in serious trouble back in 2006. Somewhat before my time though!

 

This is largely an issue of semantics. The letter of the law essentially states that Airsoft/doing various things with RIFs is illegal, unless X and Y, in which case the Airsofter has a defense which can be used in court - de facto legal, and very close to de jure. Of course, this depends on untested legislation and no one really knows which way things will swing until there's a decent court case so I think you're right in (technically) saying it's not "legal" as such.

 

From this perspective, let's say this chap did indeed receive a two tone, instead of a proper RIF, and painted it so he could look cooler than cool at his next skirmish - Yeah I'd probably say "it's fine", and as GeorgePlaysAirsoft says it was mostly just a way to placate his (hopefully hot) mum

 

 

TBH would be really interesting to see a decent case hit the courts, just to see how things play out. I wouldn't wish it on the poor sod who had to go to court though, nor would I hope one actually goes to court just in case the hammer swings against us.

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3 hours ago, GeorgePlaysAirsoft said:

I was speaking in plain english rather then legalese to help a guy reassure his mum

 

Sure, I get that.  Bear in mind that I stripped the two tone from my toys as soon as I got them due to being confident in having a defence, so my high horse is more of a Shetland pony.  You do have to be able to adduce that defence though, and I'm not sure that Stifler here could.

 

Not that he needs to, fortunately.

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wonders if the mother was satisfied? if not you could have painted or masked up the gun to keep her happy as well (yes not legally required but yall know who lays down the law in a household...) then again I just have an urge to do a gritty but realistic bright paint jobby soon...

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6 hours ago, remus said:

wonders if the mother was satisfied? if not you could have painted or masked up the gun to keep her happy as well (yes not legally required but yall know who lays down the law in a household...) then again I just have an urge to do a gritty but realistic bright paint jobby soon...

I haven’t been given contact details, so I am unable to confirm if she has been satisfied

But the OP has managed to show her sufficient evidence from this thread and the legislation so that she is happy that he has not pulled a fast one on her and that no offence has been committed 

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