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21 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

All I'm suggesting is a marshal with a chrono and a speedloader full of 0.2g / site limit BBs at the respawn point, or briefing point.  Chrono a few players while they're otherwise faffing around or chatting.  Do it visibly so that everyone can see that it's being done and that there's a real chance of being caught with a hot gun.

 

indeed, once you build up a local reputation as the kind of place where you can get pulled over at any point and tested without the chance to undo whatever trickery you're using to cheat then the cheaters either won't go, or will run kosher guns just in case.

 

when we finally talked the marshalls at one of our sites into trying it they managed to snag someone running 2.5x the limit.

 

the weight argument taking too long is easily solved- print out the row on that conversion chart that corresponds to your site limit and tape it onto the chrono.

 

there's a mix of the honest folk who have no idea (ie the guys who don't understand 328fps on a .3 is not the same as on a .2, or folk who don't understand that joule creep is a thing) and the deliberately dishonest folk (the spring changers, the hpa tweakers etc) who can only really be caught in-game.

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52 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

The problem isn't "everyone", it's that one guy who's taking the piss because he's either genuinely ignorant, or thinks that he won't get caught, or that there won't be any consequences if he is.  We've been given examples of both in this thread, they're not hypothetical.

 

All I'm suggesting is a marshal with a chrono and a speedloader full of 0.2g / site limit BBs at the respawn point, or briefing point.  Chrono a few players while they're otherwise faffing around or chatting.  Do it visibly so that everyone can see that it's being done and that there's a real chance of being caught with a hot gun.

 

In the case of my local site, for example, there's always a queue to get back into the safe zone from the briefing point.  Pulling a few players aside for chronoing would just re-shuffle the queue, not increase the total time to clear the site, and everyone could see it being done.

 

What's actually a waste of everyone's time is talking a good game about fps / energy limits without actually checking in-game. The majority of good faith players don't need to be lectured about it, the minority of rogues aren't going to care, and rhetoric won't deter or catch them.

 

I like the idea of there being a guy guarding the safe zone with a chrono because as soon as a cheater seen say a marshal at spawn or at the briefing area checking people they might try to sneak back and untweak their gun pretending it's broken. 


The problem I see with a respawn chrono is your double punishing legit players who took their hit waited for 2 minutes now need to load a few site bbs in and chrono where as a cheater might not make it all the way back to spawn before tapping back in.  You could have a patrolling marshal bleed out players early to chrono. 

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35 minutes ago, Musica said:

a cheater might not make it all the way back to spawn before tapping back in.  You could have a patrolling marshal bleed out players early to chrono. 

 

Oof, good point, and well suggested.

 

 

1 hour ago, Adolf Hamster said:

when we finally talked the marshalls at one of our sites into trying it they managed to snag someone running 2.5x the limit.

 

Double-oof.

 

One reason that I bring it up is that I put a "500fps" (2.31J) spring in my boltie, and when I chronoed it, found that it was actually shooting at 600fps on 0.2g, or 3.33J - i.e. not an airsoft gun.

 

Back in the car it went, but that was at a site where chronoing was optional. I could have walked on and used it without let or hindrance (and genuinely without knowing, if I hadn't bothered to check), and that's what got me pondering that anybody could do so.

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7 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

One reason that I bring it up is that I put a "500fps" (2.31J) spring in my boltie, and when I chronoed it, found that it was actually shooting at 600fps on 0.2g, or 3.33J - i.e. not an airsoft gun.

 

Back in the car it went, but that was at a site where chronoing was optional. I could have walked on and used it without let or hindrance (and genuinely without knowing, if I hadn't bothered to check), and that's what got me pondering that anybody could do so.

 

yeah, this is the thing, for certain scenarios it's very easy to accidentally do something that makes a gun hot without even realising, joule creep is the big example but i've had the same as you happen when i bought a full drop-in gearbox and mistakenly assumed the spring would be ok, needless to say at the chrono i was as surprised as the guy holding it and back in the car it went.

 

i remember someone asking me about putting a longer barrel in his pistol, fella had no idea until i explained to him that it'll push him way over the limit if he did. to this day i get antsy when i see pistols with suppressors on them.

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4 hours ago, Wo1f said:

 It’s all of the fucking about with weights at the start of the day some people are suggesting. Chrono on a .20 and leave it at that. 

With you 100% on this brother , what I’ve always said , use site supplied BBs you pass ? You can play with that gun . You fail ? You don’t play with that gun end off . 

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I have an idea....

Chrono everyone at the end of the day just after the last game. Anyone caught over the limit gets a congratulations on being a douche-nozzle.

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5 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

 

We still chrono on the weight people are playing on and use a conversion chart to ensure that the FPS is within limits. Personally id rather either switch to jules

 

If you're doing that, you're already doing chrono to Joules limits - because that's how the conversion charts work, isn't it?

 

I play mainly at Proving Grounds - they chrono on Joules and the weight you're playing with. Sometimes there are 2-300 players in Summer and Chrono, whilst busy, has never been a problem in the time I've been going.
At the safety briefing the head marshal clearly states - we chrono on Joules - if anybody doesn't understand that or has problems with it, please come and talk to us so we can help educate you about Joule creep.
Some marshals have chrono's so they can spot check in game - and if you're hot, you're going home.

 A stark contrast to when I went to somewhere else the other week. If you were a regular, you didn't have to chrono, as you'd already been done once. If you were new, then you had to chrono. I'm 99% sure some of the guns were hot. I'm not going to whinge about it though, I just won't go back.

 

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8 minutes ago, sonofsammo said:

I play mainly at Proving Grounds - they chrono on Joules and the weight you're playing with. Sometimes there are 2-300 players in Summer and Chrono, whilst busy, has never been a problem in the time I've been going.
At the safety briefing the head marshal clearly states - we chrono on Joules - if anybody doesn't understand that or has problems with it, please come and talk to us so we can help educate you about Joule creep.
Some marshals have chrono's so they can spot check in game - and if you're hot, you're going home.

 

sounds like they've got it together, if they're spot checking people do they use site ammo? just in case folk are saying ".2g honest guvnor"

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15 minutes ago, sonofsammo said:

If you're doing that, you're already doing chrono to Joules limits - because that's how the conversion charts work, isn't it?

 

I play mainly at Proving Grounds - they chrono on Joules and the weight you're playing with. Sometimes there are 2-300 players in Summer and Chrono, whilst busy, has never been a problem in the time I've been going.
At the safety briefing the head marshal clearly states - we chrono on Joules - if anybody doesn't understand that or has problems with it, please come and talk to us so we can help educate you about Joule creep.
Some marshals have chrono's so they can spot check in game - and if you're hot, you're going home.

 A stark contrast to when I went to somewhere else the other week. If you were a regular, you didn't have to chrono, as you'd already been done once. If you were new, then you had to chrono. I'm 99% sure some of the guns were hot. I'm not going to whinge about it though, I just won't go back.

 

 

True but the way we do it isn’t allowing for jule creep if we are only looking at the fps, or have I misunderstood?

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45 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

 

True but the way we do it isn’t allowing for jule creep if we are only looking at the fps, or have I misunderstood?

 

assuming the guy isn't swapping his ammo post-chrono then it does include joule creep.

 

it's the way i'd do it- take the site limit in joules then print out the expected fps for a bunch of ammo weights and stick it onto the chrono so you know what the number should be below for x ammo type.

 

this is the problem with using .2's, because chrono'ing ok on .2's then switching to .4's can in the right gun lead to a big increase in joules.

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7 minutes ago, Adolf Hamster said:

this is the problem with using .2's, because chrono'ing ok on .2's then switching to .4's can in the right gun lead to a big increase in joules

 

And while I take the point that piston guns can experience joule creep going from heavier to lighter ammo, I'd argue that's less of a problem, since a lighter BB will lose energy faster with range, and the density of the BB is a factor in how much it hurts, or how likely it is to knock out or penetrate a lens.  I'd rather be shot at with lighter + faster than heavier + slower, kinetic energy being more or less equal to begin with.

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20 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

And while I take the point that piston guns can experience joule creep going from heavier to lighter ammo, I'd argue that's less of a problem, since a lighter BB will lose energy faster with range, and the density of the BB is a factor in how much it hurts, or how likely it is to knock out or penetrate a lens.  I'd rather be shot at with lighter + faster than heavier + slower, kinetic energy being more or less equal to begin with.

 

oh for spring guns it's generally not a problem, although it's possible with the right setup of a heavy piston on snipers. 

 

problem is when joule creep is giving you a heavier bb with significantly more energy.

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2 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

 

sounds like they've got it together, if they're spot checking people do they use site ammo? just in case folk are saying ".2g honest guvnor"


They spot check with whatever the player is playing with - so tbf, if someone's going to be a proper sneaky bastard, then they could get away with it.
But, it's generally a decent site with decent players, so I've never known it be an issue.
 

2 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

 

True but the way we do it isn’t allowing for jule creep if we are only looking at the fps, or have I misunderstood?


Using a chart with equivalent FPS is worked out using Joules. Joule creep occurs when using heavier ammo and so this is accounted for using the chart.
So for example, for a sniper at my regular site, the FPS is 500 on .2's - which is 2.32J
When using .48s, the FPS is 323, whilst the Joules remains at 2.32J
I set my rifle up to run at 2.32J with .48 ammo. and it's under the 2.32J.
However, if I set my rifle up to run at 2.32J with .2 ammo, when I switched to .48s, it would be significantly over the limit.
Conversely, with my rifle set up for .48s and 2.32J, if I swapped to .2's, it would be significantly under the 500fps/2.32J limit...

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BUT if you take the cheating bastard factor out of it (players who’s consciously and knowingly break the rules) then all the babbling about joule creep’ is pretty much irrelevant , even if the FPS has gone up as long as your following the correct engagement distances then it’s not going to have risen enough that your going to dramatically increase the risk of injury due to a ‘hot’ gun are you ? Can only speak from personal experience but the few times (luckily) I’ve seen real injuries ocure due to a hot gun if the culprit was found nine times out of ten the player knew exactly what they were doing so no matter how stringent the chrono procedure was , it was still more than likely going to happen . 

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We put 150 peoples guns through crono yesterday and not one was over the limits. Word must have got out.

One not so nice thing  a shattering BB on mesh face pro, still think goggles or glasses should be mandatory under mesh to protect eyes and that manufacturers like Nuprol should alter their product so it does not shatter so easily!

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12 minutes ago, gasman said:

We put 150 peoples guns through crono yesterday and not one was over the limits. Word must have got out.

One not so nice thing  a shattering BB on mesh face pro, still think goggles or glasses should be mandatory under mesh to protect eyes and that manufacturers like Nuprol should alter their product so it does not shatter so easily!

What was the fall out from the shattering bb? Everyone live to see another day? 

 

Peoples level of PPE is up to them somewhat. As you could argue mesh is better than glasses or do you enforce full seal, full face, never ends people need to make peace with their PPE and accept what ever risks it has. 

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Eye wash and painful Eye could have been worse.

We have been down this road on the forum regarding eye protection but people still rely on mesh for eye protection so stupid of them!!!

One set of eyes so look after them.

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1 minute ago, gasman said:

Eye wash and painful Eye could have been worse.

We have been down this road on the forum regarding eye protection but people still rely on mesh for eye protection so stupid of them!!!

One set of eyes so look after them.

 

I don't use mesh myself for my eyes. My site gives rentals mesh eye pro pretty awful  at that point it's not their choice of PPE but the sites so any injury will be on them for providing inadequate protection for the activity they are selling but more importantly some poor sod who didn't know better and was just handed the mesh is getting the worst of it. 

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6 minutes ago, gasman said:

Eye wash and painful Eye could have been worse.

We have been down this road on the forum regarding eye protection but people still rely on mesh for eye protection so stupid of them!!!

One set of eyes so look after them.

 

Mesh is fine.

 

Even if a bb shatters and particles go through the force is removed so it won't cause serious harm. Not saying proper goggles are not better but just saying you are overstating how serious an issue it is.

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16 minutes ago, Musica said:

What was the fall out from the shattering bb? Everyone live to see another day? 

 

Peoples level of PPE is up to them somewhat. As you could argue mesh is better than glasses or do you enforce full seal, full face, never ends people need to make peace with their PPE and accept what ever risks it has. 

 

problem is a lot of sites provide their rentals with mesh eyepro, folks who are new to the sport might not realise the potential risks they're letting themselves in for.

 

agreed experienced players can take their own chances once they have an informed notion of the risks but to inflict that on newbies isn't fair.

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Ooh, ooh, let's see that picture of a piece of BB embedded in someone's eyeball that they insisted wasn't serious. ;)

 

Couple of game days back I saw a rental get shards through his crap-o-mesh mash.  His immediate instinctive reaction was to flip the mask up and rub his eyes.

 

There's your srs issue, and people are going to do that.  Yes, even if you tell them not to, just like how new rentals ignore most of the rest of the safety brief as well.

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48 minutes ago, gasman said:

...One not so nice thing  a shattering BB on mesh face pro, still think goggles or glasses should be mandatory under mesh to protect eyes and that manufacturers like Nuprol should alter their product so it does not shatter so easily!

Personally I'd want consistently shattering BB's banned

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1 minute ago, ImTriggerHappy said:

Any brand of bb can shatter

Not against mesh in a 'normal' game scenario.

I'm not talking about a 500fps sniper shot at 1 foot

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6 minutes ago, EDcase said:

I'd want to know what make BB's shattered and ban'em

 

 How would you police that? they're little white balls!

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