Umarex/VFC/Elite Force MP7 AEG - Any info?

[Musica]

18 minutes ago, PopRocket123 said:

It's what I do. They always get torn apart and rebuilt straight away anyway so may as well but something that needs the work. Picked up a VFC SCAR H off here for £150 with 5 mags and a hard case for a DMR project because it locked up due to a crap VFC motor and since then I've spent more on the BTC CHIMERA and scope than the original gun.

power to you. Too feared myself to think about that kinda stuff.

 

[jcheeseright]

Bear in mind that the TM/WE/KJW/KWA/Whatever MP7s we've had previously are only 80% scale (not 95% as mentioned earlier in the thread), a 1:1 Airsoft MP7 will have plenty of room inside the receiver for a solid gearbox and a full size motor with no problems.  Some dude on Youtube called Asianwithhat did a chrono test on a pre production VFC MP7 and it was doing 360fps on .20g BBs.  

 

I had a go on one of the VFC GBB MP7s a while back and it was correct scale but didn't perform as well as the TM.  AEGs are a whole other kettle of fish though. 

[PopRocket123]

7 minutes ago, jcheeseright said:

Bear in mind that the TM/WE/KJW/KWA/Whatever MP7s we've had previously are only 80% scale (not 95% as mentioned earlier in the thread), a 1:1 Airsoft MP7 will have plenty of room inside the receiver for a solid gearbox and a full size motor with no problems.  Some dude on Youtube called Asianwithhat did a chrono test on a pre production VFC MP7 and it was doing 360fps on .20g BBs.  

 

I had a go on one of the VFC GBB MP7s a while back and it was correct scale but didn't perform as well as the TM.  AEGs are a whole other kettle of fish though. 

Set up right, r hopped running .28s it'll definitely keep up with full sized aegs

[Musica]

do we know inner barrel length yet? 

[Rogerborg]

14 hours ago, Wo1f said:

A gun can fire 330 FPS on a .20 and hit 1j, but if it’s not got enough air volume, when you put a .30 in it, it won’t be firing 1j, it will most definitely be less because the Air has all been used up before the BB has left the barrel.

 

Wouldn't a heavier, slower BB tend to pick up more energy from the airflow than a lighter one that might emerge while there's still some shove left to impart?

 

Genuine question, I'm trying to get my head round it.

 

 

 

10 hours ago, jcheeseright said:

Bear in mind that the TM/WE/KJW/KWA/Whatever MP7s we've had previously are only 80% scale

 

The TM/Well are ickle things, and somewhat toyish.  I'm not sure why they did them under-scale, unless it was simply to fit the AEP sized parts that they had to hand.  But even at that, they could have put smaller internals into a full size shell.

 

Yes, there should be enough volume in a full scale MP7, but I suspect the issue is that relatively low-set barrel, necessitating the offset air nozzle on the gearbox.

 

Old medicine adage, the 2nd dose costs pennies to make, but the 1st one costs millions.  VFC will have to set their prices high to recoup the costs of that custom gearbox.  Someone who comes along and just clones it won't have that problem.

[Wo1f]

@Rogerborg that’s correct if you have enough air. But in this case it’s gonna be the opposite I imagine because in AEP’s at least, they’ve ran out of air trying to push something heavy out before it’s left the barrel. In severe cases, in high speed, low volume setups, the piston is sucking air back in before the B.B. has left the barrel. 

 

Easiest way to show this lack of air is to shoot this or an AEP with the standard barrel and the heaviest weight you can shoot well, and then change the barrel for something stupid like a 450mm and shoot again. You won’t get anywhere near the range or flat flight path.

 

GBBR’s have the opposite effect because they’re “self matching” in the sense that you have a set amount of gas released from the mag, but the gas only moves to operate the recoil once the BB has left the barrel. I’ll edit this post in a few mins with some chrono pictures to show this 

[Wo1f]

TM mws firing .20

TM mws firing .43

 

Silverback SRS firing .20

silverback srs firing .43

 

TM 5-7 pistol .20

TM 5-7 .43

 

Now to show a lack of air and Joule loss..

JG g36c .20

jg g36c .43

 

[Musica]

I see the point your talking about piston suck. Wouldn't it be more of a problem for longer barrels as it has longer to suck it back? Or is it your concern that the smaller piston isn't sized correctly to the barrel length?

 

Was hop off for these tests? As you are seeing joule creep on every gun other than the g36c I've seen correctly set hop cause increase in FPS over  no hop or full hop. 

 

In the case of the Jg g36c a stock AEG would never be able to hop a .43 I doubt the VFC can hop a .30 out the box. 

 

 

[Wo1f]

8 minutes ago, Musica said:

I see the point your talking about piston suck. Wouldn't it be more of a problem for longer barrels as it has longer to suck it back? Or is it your concern that the smaller piston isn't sized correctly to the barrel length?

 

Was hop off for these tests? As you are seeing joule creep on every gun other than the g36c I've seen correctly set hop cause increase in FPS over  no hop or full hop. 

 

In the case of the Jg g36c a stock AEG would never be able to hop a .43 I doubt the VFC can hop a .30 out the box. 

 

 

It is more of an issue with longer barrels, but if you only have a tiny air volume then you can run into this issue with a short barrel. The other concerning thing is the cylinder length. It can be a meter wide, but if it’s only 5mm long, it’s useless. If the spring doesn’t have time to accelerate then your performance is going to suffer. The best example of this is crossbows vs compound bows. A 200LB crossbow might not have the energy, range or accuracy of a 70LB compound bow because the string on the crossbow only has a couple of inches from locked back to shot. In comparison, the compound bow has much more string travel so it has a longer time to impart all of its energy. 

 

I didnt touch the hop. I wasn’t willing to drag all of this crap outside at this ungodly hour of the day 😂

 

stock might not, but I’ve got a TM recoil that’s got its cylinder volume matched and R hopped and it will happily throw a .40 as far as you want. 

[Musica]

I didn't expect you to fuck with your hop was just trying to rationalise the joule increase for heavier bbs on the guns. 

 

It's a valid concern as it's a new design they might not have done the math right for volume with barrel length.

 

It will only be an issue for people trying to use it outdoors I think as 0.25 for indoor is pretty much the standard. For £430 I'd damn hope it performs outdoors as well. I'm not making my decision on what to buy until end of Feb so hoping to see some practical tests of this done by some non youtuber shills if they exist. It might not even be out by then could be end of summer before we get to buy these.  

[Wo1f]

The joule increase comes from being gas guns or in case of the SRS, a fooking huge cylinder and relatively small barrel. Both of which push and push until the BB has left the barrel, even if that BB is heavy and in the barrel longer. 

 

For most AEG’s with full cylinders, 455mm is the absolute max inner barrel you want. You can get away with longer with things like PSG-1’s and SR-25’s with longer cylinders. Another way of doing it is by getting a tightbore of the same length. My Realsword SVD is getting a 680mm 5.98mm barrel. The length is the same, but the reduced volume in the barrel is like having more volume in the cylinder. 

 

Ive no doubt it will perform respectably in CQB and be usable outdoors, but the nature of the gearbox (I assume at this point) limits the tuning capabilities from going from a good gun to an amazing one.

 

It’s all about what you want. Every one of my guns from a pistol to a sniper rifle is fiddled with to give me the best range possible because that’s my style of play. If you like getting in close and using volume of fire, there’s no need to open virtually any gearbox. 

[Rogerborg]

Thanks @Wo1f, that's fascinating stuff.  I get why gas guns joule creep upwards, but I did not expect a piston gun to lose energy with heavier BBs.  I'm still struggling to see why, unless its bleeding energy while inside the barrel, but I can't argue with the results.

[Musica]

5 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Thanks @Wo1f, that's fascinating stuff.  I get why gas guns joule creep upwards, but I did not expect a piston gun to lose energy with heavier BBs.  I'm still struggling to see why, unless its bleeding energy while inside the barrel, but I can't argue with the results.

When the piston is pulled back /reset it has to suck air in and if the bb is still in the barrel because it's taking longer to exit because it's heavier then it starts sucking it back sapping some of the energy it just used to push it.  This all happens in fractions of seconds but if a heavier bb takes a few fractions longer to exit it's possible. 

 

TM did all the math for barrel length/piston volume to try to avoid this for their guns so techs and clones stick to their cylinders/ barrel lengths mostly. I suppose when they did the math it wasn't taking in to acount a bb with over double the weight of the standard either. 

[Wo1f]

37 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

Thanks @Wo1f, that's fascinating stuff.  I get why gas guns joule creep upwards, but I did not expect a piston gun to lose energy with heavier BBs.  I'm still struggling to see why, unless its bleeding energy while inside the barrel, but I can't argue with the results.

In its simplest terms, get a B.B. and a straw and blow. See how far the B.B. goes. Now take that same breath and same B.B. and do it with a drainpipe of the same length. You’d be lucky if it reached the end of the pipe. That’s a bad volume ratio. 

 

In terms of joule loss with heavier weight BBs.. put a .20 BB and a marble on a table (this simulates a tiny cylinder “lungs” and along, high volume barrel “open air”) with a single breath blow on them and see which one travels further (it will be the BB). Now pick them both up, go outside and throw them as far as you can. The marble will go many times the distance with the same force of throw. That’s because of how much energy you can actually transfer to the object. The more mass, the more potential energy it can contain. 

[EvilMonkee]

I heard $380 on one video on YT for it - so by the time that it gets here expect £450

[Rogerborg]

1 hour ago, Musica said:

When the piston is pulled back /reset it has to suck air in

 

I assume those were semi auto chrono shots, so the piston wouldn't have been pulled back unless the gearbox was over-spinning.  Which it could have been.

[Musica]

38 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I assume those were semi auto chrono shots, so the piston wouldn't have been pulled back unless the gearbox was over-spinning.  Which it could have been.

 

Your making too much sense. 

 

Really expected to get more info from shotshow but everyones video is the same shit. 

[Wo1f]

56 minutes ago, Rogerborg said:

 

I assume those were semi auto chrono shots, so the piston wouldn't have been pulled back unless the gearbox was over-spinning.  Which it could have been.

That’s correct. Only an issue on full auto or if a gun has precocking. 

[Musica]

1 hour ago, Wo1f said:

That’s correct. Only an issue on full auto or if a gun has precocking. 

So in your G36c's case your suggesting that the cylinder doesn't have enough volume to push the heavier bb down the length of barrel and after so far it's no longer getting pushed and it's sort of just bouncing around. 

 

[Wo1f]

1 hour ago, Musica said:

So in your G36c's case your suggesting that the cylinder doesn't have enough volume to push the heavier bb down the length of barrel and after so far it's no longer getting pushed and it's sort of just bouncing around. 

 

Essentially yes. It’s imparted all of the air it had into the BB before it had left the barrel because of the ported cylinder.

 

the volume of a ported cylinder only starts where the end of the port hole is, reducing the power stroke. That’s why DSG builds usually need big springs to get even 300 FPS because the piston isn’t traveling to the rear and utilising all of the air the cylinder can potentially make. The advantage of a port is it allows the piston to accelerate quickly.

[Musica]

accelerating quickly is good because hits the bb faster improving responsiveness from trigger to target?

 

I can't see why people want 40ROF guns. 

[Wo1f]

14 minutes ago, Musica said:

accelerating quickly is good because hits the bb faster improving responsiveness from trigger to target?

 

I can't see why people want 40ROF guns. 

Helps trigger response a little, but it also hits FPS numbers easier. If I put a full cylinder in that g36c I’d probably loose FPS on a .20 but I’d gain joules with heavier ammo.

 

if I ever find enough disposable income to buy another ICS m4 I’ll do a forum or video series explaining everything properly.

[Musica]

quick change spring? 

 

[Musica]

You can order it now stock expected April 

 

http://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/airsoft-rifles-c38/electric-rifles-c45/umarex-mp7a1-aeg-p9666/s11746

 

Also FPS has been changed from 360 to 300 on their page on 0.20g bbs 

 

Quote

These will be manufactured by VFC, are expected to perform around 300FPS (with 0.20g bb's)

[GemsHD]

10 hours ago, Musica said:

You can order it now stock expected April 

 

http://www.landwarriorairsoft.com/airsoft-rifles-c38/electric-rifles-c45/umarex-mp7a1-aeg-p9666/s11746

 

Also FPS has been changed from 360 to 300 on their page on 0.20g bbs 

 

 

£420... wow