First gun: find a balance or “specialise”

[hpbingham]

I played my first game today, and so whilst it’s atleast two months before I’ll be buying a gun I’m starting to think about what I want to buy.

 

The game today was CQB, which I thoroughly enjoyed, however, from paintballing (albeit I’ve not done much) I’m pretty confident that I will enjoy outdoor/larger scale skirmishes.

 

One of the key things I noted today, was that the standard M4 rental I was given was not great indoors. I spent more time with the stock under my armpit, or over my shoulder, to allow me to move with the muzzle kept up than I did with the stock in my shoulder. It really was too big for indoor use. As such I’m thinking of looking at guns suitable for CQB, but I’m concerned what the downside of that will have in an open field; are they less accurate over longer rage? Is there a suitable compromise, or do I need a “field” weapon and a CQB weapon?

 

I’m thinking in the field, if I go for an assault rifle type weapon, it would be good to have a sidearm as well. And whilst I didn’t get chance to use a pistol today, I can imagine that one could work very well in a CQB environment. But again, there must be downsides to only using a pistol for CQB? I’m presuming mag capacity, but interested if there are any other potential issues.

 

Finally, one thing I noticed with the weapon I was using was that when swapped shoulders with the stock, I was managing to change the firing mode from semi to either auto or safe, which came as a surprise to me and the other team depending on which direction the switch had gone. Was this user error? Or a “niggle” of that particular gun,? ...and what are others “niggles” that I might come across using different weapons that I should be aware of when selecting my first gun.

 

Basically, is there an all round weapon that will work for open field and CQB play, or should I have a weapon for each... or will I get away with a main weapon for open field, and a pistol for CQB and as a sidearm for open field.

 

...and what are little niggles/preferences that you only pick up from actually using a particular weapon that it’s useful to know about.

[Game Cam]

Personally (meaning this is my own opinion feel free to disagree) I love all sorts of guns so I own lots of different ones and I'll probably buy many more.

I have guns that only work in CQB like my CYMA shotgun and TM P90 because they don't have the range.

And I have guns that are impossible to use indoors (or just outright not allowed) like M249 and long barrel M4.

I have one gun that does super well at both and that's my G&G ARP556 - tiny little gun but shoots as far as big M4s.

I know there are other Carbines/SMGs that are similar like the EVO Skorpions, Vectors and some MP5, among others.

 

If I was in your shoes I would buy a decent rifle and pistol you like, buy plenty of mags for both and run the rifle and pistol outside and just pistol for CQB. I tend to do my best with just my pistol in CQB as it gives me alot more mobility and in regards of ammo - most pistols hold 17 bbs and you shouldn't need that many to kill someone and pistols are quick reloads if he has mates (depending on practice and pistol).

[Adolf Hamster]

just get a standard rifle and a pistol, best of both worlds.

 

and i wouldn't judge a rental gun's dodgy performance as given, i once had a rental m4 that would fire semi on safe and full auto everywhere else, now i have an m4 that fires semi on semi and explodes on full auto

 

a short barrel isn't going to hinder range/accuracy too much so if you do mainly do cqb then something stubby like an arp or firehawk can be pressed into outdoor service.

[hpbingham]

2 minutes ago, Game Cam said:

Personally (meaning this is my own opinion feel free to disagree) I love all sorts of guns so I own lots of different ones and I'll probably buy many more.

I have guns that only work in CQB like my CYMA shotgun and TM P90 because they don't have the range.

And I have guns that are impossible to use indoors (or just outright not allowed) like M249 and long barrel M4.

I have one gun that does super well at both and that's my G&G ARP556 - tiny little gun but shoots as far as big M4s.

I know there are other Carbines/SMGs that are similar like the EVO Skorpions, Vectors and some MP5, among others.

 

If I was in your shoes I would buy a decent rifle and pistol you like, buy plenty of mags for both and run the rifle and pistol outside and just pistol for CQB. I tend to do my best with just my pistol in CQB as it gives me alot more mobility and in regards of ammo - most pistols hold 17 bbs and you shouldn't need that many to kill someone and pistols are quick reloads if he has mates (depending on practice and pistol).

Thanks.

 

It’s funny you mentioned the ARP 556 as I’ve seen this gun mentioned a lot, and from the various comments I’ve seen it appears people seem to be impressed with its long rage and CQB potential. So before posting this I’d been looking at that, but I can’t seem to find it in stock anywhere. 

[Game Cam]

4 minutes ago, hpbingham said:

Thanks.

 

It’s funny you mentioned the ARP 556 as I’ve seen this gun mentioned a lot, and from the various comments I’ve seen it appears people seem to be impressed with its long rage and CQB potential. So before posting this I’d been looking at that, but I can’t seem to find it in stock anywhere. 

 I have been preaching the ARP 556 gospel since I got the little sucker.

I bought it off Surplus Store for £250 as a backup gun but I use it now more than my main M4. If you can't get your hands on one there are plenty of copycats from other Airsoft companies that might be worth a look.

[Asomodai]

16 minutes ago, hpbingham said:

Thanks.

 

It’s funny you mentioned the ARP 556 as I’ve seen this gun mentioned a lot, and from the various comments I’ve seen it appears people seem to be impressed with its long rage and CQB potential. So before posting this I’d been looking at that, but I can’t seem to find it in stock anywhere. 

 

Airsoft Imports and Combat South has them in stock at the moment. 

[hpbingham]

10 minutes ago, Asomodai said:

 

Airsoft Imports and Combat South has them in stock at the moment. 

Thanks. I’ll keep an eye out for when I get my UKARA sorted! I think I’m going to go for this. Are there any bad things about the gun/things people don’t like?

What’s the main difference between the ARP9 and ARP 556?

[sonofsammo]

I've not used the 556 - I have the ARP9, it's cheaper brother.
It's awesome. Snappy trigger response for CQB, or out in the field stick a drum mag in it and you have a tiny LMG 😄 

So I'm guessing if the ARP9 is awesome, the 556 would be awesome squared!

As to the more general question, of rifle/sidearm:
I use predominantly pistols in CQB, or submachineguns (like the vector or ARP9) without stocks.
In woodland, I use sniper/dmr, with pistols as sidearms. Or the Vector as a sidearm.

In short, may advice would be to go with what feels right - not what people tell you you should get.
Cos at the end of the day, it's you that'll be shooting the bad guys with it 😄 

 

 

P.S.

There are some vids here that cover the differences between the two rifs:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=arp9+556+comparison&rlz=1C5CHFA_enGB749GB749&source=lnms&tbm=vid&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-sPnW9YjdAhWHBsAKHa1RC6wQ_AUIDSgE&biw=1164&bih=727

[Sniper780]

2 hours ago, hpbingham said:

Basically, is there an all round weapon that will work for open field and CQB play, or should I have a weapon for each... or will I get away with a main weapon for open field, and a pistol for CQB and as a sidearm for open field.

 

...and what are little niggles/preferences that you only pick up from actually using a particular weapon that it’s useful to know about

If you are looking for a weapon to use in both CQB and outdoor you may want to consider a bullpup style weapon such as AUG, Tavor Tar-21, SA80, APS UAR and Real sword type 97 or type 97b ( I personally have and use the RS type 97 & type97b which I can talk/drone on about the pros & cons for ages ). 

[Tackle]

As has been said, get what your comfortable with, essentially they all do the same thing, agreed some do it better than others but in the scheme of things even barrel length doesn't have a massive effect on the gats abilities, obviously if your planning on mainly playing tight cqb sites then you don't want a full length m14, & if your gonna play massive woodland sites then a scorpion or mp5k may get outgunned in the long run.

youve got another couple of games before your ukara'd, maybe see what other players are using on site next time you play, ask nicely & maybe they'll let you try it briefly, & then once you've got a shortlist based on what you THEN think you like, ask the question here again or bump this post.

good luck mate

mark

7 minutes ago, Sniper780 said:

If you are looking for a weapon to use in both CQB and outdoor you may want to consider a bullpup style weapon such as AUG, Tavor Tar-21, SA80, APS UAR and Real sword type 97 or type 97b ( I personally have and use the RS type 97 & type97b). 

Yep, bullpups rock too

[Prisce]

FireHawk would be a nice compromise, you can make it vicious too.

[hpbingham]

2 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

just get a standard rifle and a pistol, best of both worlds.

 

and i wouldn't judge a rental gun's dodgy performance as given, i once had a rental m4 that would fire semi on safe and full auto everywhere else, now i have an m4 that fires semi on semi and explodes on full auto

 

a short barrel isn't going to hinder range/accuracy too much so if you do mainly do cqb then something stubby like an arp or firehawk can be pressed into outdoor service.

If I’m predominantly going for outdoor, with CQB being something I’ll do on occasion would I be hindering myself going for the likes of the ARP though.

1 hour ago, Sniper780 said:

If you are looking for a weapon to use in both CQB and outdoor you may want to consider a bullpup style weapon such as AUG, Tavor Tar-21, SA80, APS UAR and Real sword type 97 or type 97b ( I personally have and use the RS type 97 & type97b which I can talk/drone on about the pros & cons for ages ). 

What’s the drawbacks of a bullpup, aside being fugly 😂

30 minutes ago, Prisce said:

FireHawk would be a nice compromise, you can make it vicious too.

Yeh that looks like it would do the job CQB, although I’ve been thinking about trying to avoid the M4 platform as that’s what everyone seems to have. 

[Adolf Hamster]

9 minutes ago, hpbingham said:

If I’m predominantly going for outdoor, with CQB being something I’ll do on occasion would I be hindering myself going for the likes of the ARP though.

 

an arp specifically not really, it's a lightweight m249 with a drum mag on it. if it's occasional cqb though i'd say pistol is more than sufficient so get what you want for the rifle.

 

9 minutes ago, hpbingham said:

What’s the drawbacks of a bullpup, aside being fugly 😂

 

 

tbh, bad triggers and being not that great for manipulating, i love me a good bullpup but tbh unless there's a specific one you love i'd say there's not much benefit.

 

9 minutes ago, hpbingham said:

Yeh that looks like it would do the job CQB, although I’ve been thinking about trying to avoid the M4 platform as that’s what everyone seems to have. 

 

the m4 is a great platform, there's a reason it's popular, but then it's nice being different. like when i rock up with the mg42 it has a prescence that an m4 or an arp doesn't have despite the fact in reality a drum mag on either of those will give you 100% of the effectiveness for 25% of the weight.

[Sniper780]

3 hours ago, Adolf Hamster said:

3 hours ago, hpbingham said:

What’s the drawbacks of a bullpup, aside being fugly 😂

 

 

tbh, bad triggers and being not that great for manipulating, i love me a good bullpup but tbh unless there's a specific one you love i'd say there's not much benefit.

 I am assuming what Adolf Hamster is referring to ( correcting me if I am wrong) is that the trigger pull on bullpups tend to be long and sometimes on the squishy side, resulting not being able to rapidly pull the trigger on semi-auto, however, this is not the case on all airsoft bullpups and in some case trigger pull can be improved with the addition of a mosfet.

 

Now when it comes to skirmishing I personally do not find that bullpup trigger pull a problem due to a combination of prolonged usage and adrenalin during the skirmish  I find you will not really notice it and is some case I find prolonged trigger pull can be a pro, as I can take up the slack on the trigger while tracking a moving target then reach the point of resistance where I know that the AEG will fire.    With regards to ergonomic yes depending on the model of bullpup they can be unergonomic awkward posting of magazine release being the main issue but,  again it comes down to prolong usage resulting in you get used to it.   

 

7 hours ago, hpbingham said:

One of the key things I noted today, was that the standard M4 rental I was given was not great indoors. I spent more time with the stock under my armpit, or over my shoulder, to allow me to move with the muzzle kept up

 

 The pros of the bullpup are its compactness and like use mentioned in your original post you kept having to tuck the m4 stock under your arm with a bullpup, you will most like find this not being a problem depending on the model you like the look of.

Another pro is the weight you find that bullpups are generally well balanced because the weight is toward the rear (due to the gearbox being placed at the rear)  resulting in it being closer to you so if you like adding attachments to your weapon then the weight is generally spread over the bullpup and can be more manageable unlike some Armalite style rifle and AKs I have seen that weight a tonne.    . 

 

Point ability is another pro I find it easy to draw and acquire a target. It also easier to move through thick undergrowth and hiding the barrel out of cover. Also, a lot of airsoft bull pups use stanag style magazine so if your teams run stanag style magazine you can share (mag compatibility not with standing).   

 

However, it entirely up to you what weapon you chose.

[Iceni]

Rifles are bulky for the most part. It's something you lean to deal with. Technique and practice at shouldering a gun correctly and bringing a gun up to target are all part of the learning curve.

Chances are you struggled a little because of bad body placement (too close to the walls), And poor shouldering technique (stooping, not brining the gun fully up to the shoulder, chicken winging the elbow). You can teach yourself not to do the wrong thing.

Getting a shorter gun won't fix this, A regular length M4 is more than capable in CQB and on the open field.

For your first gun you want.

Reliability, Good out of the box performance.

Avoid junk guns, there are countless threads on here about it, but a stock CM raider by G&G (without the ETU). Is a solid first buy.

You also want.

Cheap magazines and a decent battery compatibility.

Start with magazines, the cheapest mags out there are AK and M4 mags. You can pick them up for £4-5 each, The arp9 mags on the other hand are £25 each. M4 mag pouches are also cheap. And easy to get. ARP9 pouches on the other hand are more expensive and you will need to consider how you wear those pouches a lot more. There is more length to consider so a cheap PLCE webbing set won't work. You will need a chest rig of some sort.

For £20 you can have a 6 piece DPM webbing set ( 6 piece/Grade 2)
https://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/shop/army-surplus-uk/plce-army-webbing/plce-army-woodland-dpm-webbing-529627.html
Populating that with 4 addition mags £16-£20.
Total £36-40

To do the same for the ARP9
Pouches £11.
https://www.surplusandoutdoors.com/shop/web-tex-products/viper-mp5-triple-mag-pouch-in-425833.html
Vest £20-50
Mags x3 £75
Total £106-136.


M4's with solid stocks have the best battery compatibility. Been able to take just about anything out there. The more tactical you go the less battery options you have. This is important because the more tactical the stock the harder it is to get decent capacity in those batteries, so you need more batteries.

Solid stocks can take all day batteries like the 7.4v 2200mAh without worrying about size.

A regular crane stock can normally take a 7.4v 2000mAh nun-chuck battery, or a smaller capacity 11.1v that you will need multiples of.

A super tactical stock like the one on the ARP9 will only take low capacity smaller batteries and you will need multiples.

This cost is important as a battery is on average £15, If you need 2 you have to add that cost to the startup cost. You are also going to need the correct charger that will cost an additional £15-40 depending on the model.


For the actual gun model I can't pick for you. No one can. But If I were to pick for myself starting from scratch I would have this one (shop around the link is just the first site I found it on).

https://www.patrolbase.co.uk/g-and-g-armament-combat-machine-cm16-raider-full-stock?pv=5867

 

 

The reason why.

You can borrow just about any battery when yours are flat. And it won't care what voltage those batteries are (unlike the ETU models that need 11.1v)
Picking up 2 battery adapters (large tamiya to small tamiya) (large tamiya to deans) will cover just about every battery out there. These adapters are cheap.
It'll run on the most common and cheapest magazines.
It has loads of rail space for all those cheap upgrades that break after 1 day (Lights, PEQ boxes, Green lasers no one will let you use, Ebay red dot sights).

If you want to avoid the M4 platform then there are hundreds of other options.

Personally I love the AUG, I write up on them a fair bit. As a beginner gun it's a gun you have to want. If you don't want it then the minor problems they have will wear you down. Since this is not directly asking about that platform  I'll not be making any more comment on them. Use the search feature.

AK's are very solid, Almost trouble free as a platform, and every bit as good as the M4 platform.

Sa80/L85's are also very good, but not trouble free. Most disable the precock and blowback features. They also run a non standard V2.5 gearbox.



 

[Rogerborg]

Spoiler: once you start buying airsoft RIFs, you're unlikely to stop.  So don't sweat your first gun.

 

You can make most things work in most places enough to have a laugh with them.  Stock over the shoulder in CQB is legit tacticool.  My bijou MP5K is surprisingly usable in woodland.  Heck, some folk use MK 23s as 400fps+ sniper pistols rather than backups..  A £35 springer shotgun is competitive in CQB.  Gas purists scoff at AEPs but slightly up-spring them and slap in a 100 round extended mag and the laugh's on the other foot when it gets chilly.

 

It's all good, you do you.  Within limits: Iceni makes a great point about battery space and mag cost and availability.  The best gun in the world won't do you much good if it comes with one hi cap which breaks on your first day.

[Huxley]

lct sr3m is a good choice. Same internals as the AK so really solid and has decent range.

 

It's very hard choosing your first rif, try as many as you can at a shop or event.

[Druid799]

On 25/08/2018 at 19:34, Game Cam said:

Personally (meaning this is my own opinion feel free to disagree) I love all sorts of guns so I own lots of different ones and I'll probably buy many more.

I have guns that only work in CQB like my CYMA shotgun and TM P90 because they don't have the range.

If you have a TM P90 but it’s not got much range then I’d be inclined to say there’s a fault with it , my P90 (and two team mates have them as well) can more than hold there own in the open for range against ‘standard’ length AEG’s .

[Rogerborg]

21 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

‘standard’ length AEG’s

 

Yup. P90 barrels appear to be 260mm in length.  That's 10mm longer than a G36C.  CYMAs P90s, for example, shoot 400fps as stock.  There's no reason that an airsoft P90 shouldn't perform just as well as any other airsoft toy.  It's a platform that I want to explore, funds and Mrs Borg allowing.

[Game Cam]

26 minutes ago, Druid799 said:

If you have a TM P90 but it’s not got much range then I’d be inclined to say there’s a fault with it , my P90 (and two team mates have them as well) can more than hold there own in the open for range against ‘standard’ length AEG’s .

(Shugs shoulders)

I dunno been too busy to look into it much.

[clumpyedge]

On 25/08/2018 at 20:50, Tackle said:

Yep, bullpups rock too

 

[Cleaners inc]

Asg scorpion evo? Foldable stock. Use mine cqb and woodland without issues, range is just as good as my TM 416c