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Armed Police - Yes or No

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3 minutes ago, Countryman said:

How so? Only if an armed officer was immediately present and could have stopped the assailant could this have ended differently. As he sat there quietly to be arrested there was no need for an armed officer.

 

Sure there are times when they are needed but does that mean you want your local bobby/ traffic officer armed?

 

Not personally. But say this guy didn't sit calmly and grabbed a member of the public as a hostage? In that particular situation armed police would be a better response. 

 

Again totally situational.

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Absolutely. If the guy stood in the shop waving the knife about you can be sure the ARV would be there before anyone went in.

 

There are better arguments for arming the police. Look at how the attack on Westminster Bridge/ Parliament was stopped.

 

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True but again very situational. Personally I believe the current method is best, ie a trained unit to deal with certain situations. 

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Me too.

 

If our Police want to review that situation then that has to be their right. I would be very against it being something forced on them but politicians or some press fuelled outcry.

 

 

On 13/04/2018 at 8:42 AM, clumpyedge said:

Technically speaking pepper spray in whatever form is also classed as being armed is it not?

 

If you are caught with pepper spray (again in any form) its classed as carrying an offensive weapon and could land you in bother for common assault if you used it as a member of the public? So from that rationale even a police officer carrying spray is "armed" same rational would go for having an ASP...?

 

I'm well aware of the vast differences between firearms and sprays/batons but if you're prepared to spray someone or give their appendages a bashing (suit you sir) why not have the option of less than lethal firearms for all police (baton rounds for example)...?

 

 

Pepper Spray is a prohibited weapon in the Firearms Act. You would face proscecution as a firearm. Potentially a mandatory 5 year sentence.

 

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On 13 April 2018 at 8:42 AM, clumpyedge said:

less than lethal firearms for all police (baton rounds for example)...?

 

Lol, Less lethal ?, obviously you've never seen baton rounds in use, they are highly unstable & uncontrollable, & always potentially lethal, hence why no uk police force has deployed them on the mainland.

on the plus side, the spent rounds make a great chucking/chew toy for big dogs, my old dogs used to love them & they're pretty much indestructible :) 

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The good lady wife ran the Brighton marathon yesterday, and I was nipping between town, my brother's flat, and the seafront all day. 

 

Seeing three heavily armed - G36's with all the trimmings - officers in Churchill Square surprised me to the point of thinking it was a skirmish day, and seeing three more in the event village later on with a G36, GL and H&K 417 just seemed odd. The thought of 7.62's buzzing around in the event of 'an event' perturbed me, even though I think I'd prefer that to an unarmed 'Bobby' trying to stop a vehicle or Mumbai-type attack... 

 

... Scary times. 

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20 minutes ago, Dentonboy said:

The good lady wife ran the Brighton marathon yesterday, and I was nipping between town, my brother's flat, and the seafront all day. 

 

Seeing three heavily armed - G36's with all the trimmings - officers in Churchill Square surprised me to the point of thinking it was a skirmish day, and seeing three more in the event village later on with a G36, GL and H&K 417 just seemed odd. The thought of 7.62's buzzing around in the event of 'an event' perturbed me, even though I think I'd prefer that to an unarmed 'Bobby' trying to stop a vehicle or Mumbai-type attack... 

 

... Scary times. 

 

Yeah this is what I meant when stating I felt intimidated by armed police. Just something we civvy Brits aren't getting used to anytime soon.

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Totally against more, kind of on the fence with the ones we have with the high profile feck ups and dubious evidence produced afterwards.

 

Militarisation of civilian jobs is becoming a theme over the world and its a by-product of everything else happening.

USA for example is ridiculous, pretty much ALL of their forces are militarised to the point the ATF, CIA and FBI have more combined firepower than most European countries. Not even including the SWAT, Local cops and other organisations its crazy!!

 

Glad there are some really level and reasonable responses in this thread. Love how people know coppers and have asked and the responses are similar and in line with most people on here. No really off the wall right wing replies yet!

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3 hours ago, Duff said:

 

Yeah this is what I meant when stating I felt intimidated by armed police. Just something we civvy Brits aren't getting used to anytime soon.

Sooooo.......is it wrong that I usually get a "semi" when I see them :wub:

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17 hours ago, Tackle said:

 

Lol, Less lethal ?, obviously you've never seen baton rounds in use, they are highly unstable & uncontrollable, & always potentially lethal, hence why no uk police force has deployed them on the mainland.

on the plus side, the spent rounds make a great chucking/chew toy for big dogs, my old dogs used to love them & they're pretty much indestructible :) 

 

 

I have seen them used...

 

They are used in mainland UK arn't they? pretty much every police documentary going shows armed units having them in their kit? or am i just being naive?

 

18 hours ago, Countryman said:

 

Pepper Spray is a prohibited weapon in the Firearms Act. You would face proscecution as a firearm. Potentially a mandatory 5 year sentence.

 

 

Where do batons fit into the weapons act? just curious as while I dont agree with all police carrying guns the majority do carry something that could cause harm and potentially death if they aren't handled correctly (taser/spray/baton)

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1 hour ago, clumpyedge said:

 

 

I have seen them used...

 

They are used in mainland UK arn't they? pretty much every police documentary going shows armed units having them in their kit? or am i just being naive?

 

 

Where do batons fit into the weapons act? just curious as while I dont agree with all police carrying guns the majority do carry something that could cause harm and potentially death if they aren't handled correctly (taser/spray/baton)

Baton rounds have been approved for use on mainland UK, and I believe have been used at least once other than the obvious NI use

 

A baton round would be a projectile and it’s launcher a firearm.

Theoretically it may be possible to get licenced for one, but unless you’re issued it in the army or police it’s not going to happen.

 

An extendable baton etc is pretty much just a special stick, not necessarily illegal to own a truncheon or baton, but if possessed for self Defence etc it is a weapon, and other than NI self Defence is not justification for possessing a weapon.

 

 

With the police I’m happy with the current situation - armed response teams, plus approved trained officers that can sign out a weapon when required.  Then in specific locations and situations having armed police around 

 

 

I am familiar with being around weapons from my job.  I daily go through armed security and am used to it at work or in central London, key locations etc without paying any particular attend but I will notice arms on the street when it’s not the norm.  I’m not intimidated by the armed officer, but it does raise my awareness as there must be a reason for it

 

Odd occasions where I have particularly noticed are as a school kid at the Eiffel Tower noticing the abundance of armed police, getting stopped at an armed roadblock in the south of France in the early hours with my heart beating then just getting breathalised, going to work for a few months with an LSW hanging in my car window while my pass was checked, and a poser in mirrored shades slapping his brand new MP7 in my face when he learnt across me to the driver - I gave him a few choice words

 

Its no longer the old days with my rose tinted glasses when I would take the shortcut to school across Woolwich parade square with a squadron on either end with just pick axe handle s giving me dirty looks 

However I’m happy with the current balance and each force prioritizing the situation. 

 

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At the end of the day I can knock anyone out with a rolled up newspaper. I do beleive it's better to have and not need then need and not have. I find my stance on real firearms changes or sways slightly. Having not had any experience with real firearms I still feel ike they're something to fear through not understanding. I really would like to get on a real range just purely for the experience.

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31 minutes ago, Duff said:

At the end of the day I can knock anyone out with a rolled up newspaper. I do beleive it's better to have and not need then need and not have. I find my stance on real firearms changes or sways slightly. Having not had any experience with real firearms I still feel ike they're something to fear through not understanding. I really would like to get on a real range just purely for the experience.

 

My missus went on a firearms range with me and it spooked her to fuck

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6 minutes ago, steakandpotato said:

 

My missus went on a firearms range with me and it spooked her to fuck

 

Yeah I think I'd have a healthy adrenal dump and possible might need a spare pair of undies if I go near anything bigger than a pistol. 

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5 minutes ago, Duff said:

 

Yeah I think I'd have a healthy adrenal dump and possible might need a spare pair of undies if I go near anything bigger than a pistol. 

 

I fired a S&W (dunno what it was), a Glock 17 and an AK47.

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I think there needs to be far more armed police units in general, and much better organised, but as far as arming all officers as standard, I would say no.

 

Certain things need to change though. It was good thinking for the BTP officers to have suppressors as standard, but I can’t imagine an LMT Defender with a 14.5” barrel, plus a suppressor on the end, can be that maneouvreable inside a packed train. Have seen HK417s in town and I don’t like the idea of behind whoever is shot at with one of those.

 

Also there doesn’t seem to be any consistency and a lot of red tape - saw footage of an armed response unit be called and was 30 minutes away. There by chance happened to be another ARV drive past and stop, but they weren’t the specific unit authorised for that specific call because of something to do with some ammunition they were carrying which was softpoint instead of FMJ or something like that, so they just had to drive on and leave the regular officers on their own for half an hour waiting. It’s the little things like that that make me scream “WHY?! JUST CUT THE S***!”

2 hours ago, steakandpotato said:

 

My missus went on a firearms range with me and it spooked her to fuck

My mum went on a shooting range, changed from “guns are scary” to “look at me!” peppering the backstop with an MP5 on full auto

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I'm sure there are more armed units today than ten years ago.

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6 hours ago, clumpyedge said:

 

 

I have seen them used...

 

They are used in mainland UK arn't they? pretty much every police documentary going shows armed units having them in their kit? or am i just being naive?

All units have them, to be qualified to use one is different from "normal" firearms qualifications, as they perform & react differently to normal rounds.

the rounds themselves are assembled by the officers responsible for them, & they use the old fashioned Black Powder as a propellant, this gives a much bigger flash & more smoke, all designed to intimidate those its being used against.

BUT to the best of my (& my co19 mate), they've never been fired against crowds on the uk mainland, mainly because no senior officer has been prepared to authorise their use, & take responsibility if a round bounces up in to someone's head, usually killing them.

but you might have seen the guns used to deploy c's/tear gas type canisters to disperse crowds, different kettle of fish completely.

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2 minutes ago, Tackle said:

All units have them, to be qualified to use one is different from "normal" firearms qualifications, as they perform & react to normal rounds.

the rounds themselves are assembled by the officers responsible for them, & they use the old fashioned Black Powder as a propellant, this gives a much bigger flash & more smoke, all designed to intimidate those its being used against.

BUT to the best of my (& my co19 mate), they've never been fired against crowds on the uk mainland, mainly because no senior officer has been prepared to authorise their use, & take responsibility if a round bounces up in to someone's head, usually killing them.

but you might have seen the guns used to deploy c's/tear gas type canisters to disperse crowds, different kettle of fish completely.

 

I remember the old days of baton rounds be used in NI and the amount of serious injuries and deaths they caused! Mostly through being used incorrectly I might add (fired too close mostly).

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8 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

I think there needs to be far more armed police units in general, and much better organised, but as far as arming all officers as standard, I would say no.

 

Certain things need to change though. It was good thinking for the BTP officers to have suppressors as standard, but I can’t imagine an LMT Defender with a 14.5” barrel, plus a suppressor on the end, can be that maneouvreable inside a packed train. Have seen HK417s in town and I don’t like the idea of behind whoever is shot at with one of those.

 

Also there doesn’t seem to be any consistency and a lot of red tape - saw footage of an armed response unit be called and was 30 minutes away. There by chance happened to be another ARV drive past and stop, but they weren’t the specific unit authorised for that specific call because of something to do with some ammunition they were carrying which was softpoint instead of FMJ or something like that, so they just had to drive on and leave the regular officers on their own for half an hour waiting. It’s the little things like that that make me scream “WHY?! JUST CUT THE S***!”

My mum went on a shooting range, changed from “guns are scary” to “look at me!” peppering the backstop with an MP5 on full auto

 

Where did you get to fire a MP5 full auto?

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55 minutes ago, steakandpotato said:

 

Where did you get to fire a MP5 full auto?

Spent 6 years living abroad. Had to give up the shooting when we came back to the UK unfortunately.

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I also lived abroad for ~5 years and shot a few things. It was fun but I don't miss it hugely. I think we were around the same place @AshOnSnow and hopefully you'll agree that there are certainly far more positives in coming back than staying there for too long :D

 

Guns are mechanically super interesting, but people make mistakes (even well trained ones). I don't believe due process can be had (no matter how well intentioned an office might be) in a split second decision to draw a gun and that's why I prefer that our police have to call them in. Frankly our crime rates are still extremely low by most metrics, and whilst I appreciate that a binary decision like 'arm the police' is something tangible that everyone can have a clear-cut opinion on, the real debate is to be made in that grey area of litigation, reformation of offenders, sentencing guidelines, jurisdictional bias etc. These things don't usually get their own forum threads because they're dull and require an nuanced essay just to get your opinion out on.

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9 hours ago, AshOnSnow said:

I think there needs to be far more armed police units in general, and much better organised, but as far as arming all officers as standard, I would say no.

 

Certain things need to change though. It was good thinking for the BTP officers to have suppressors as standard, but I can’t imagine an LMT Defender with a 14.5” barrel, plus a suppressor on the end, can be that maneouvreable inside a packed train. Have seen HK417s in town and I don’t like the idea of behind whoever is shot at with one of those.

 

Also there doesn’t seem to be any consistency and a lot of red tape - saw footage of an armed response unit be called and was 30 minutes away. There by chance happened to be another ARV drive past and stop, but they weren’t the specific unit authorised for that specific call because of something to do with some ammunition they were carrying which was softpoint instead of FMJ or something like that, so they just had to drive on and leave the regular officers on their own for half an hour waiting. It’s the little things like that that make me scream “WHY?! JUST CUT THE S***!”

My mum went on a shooting range, changed from “guns are scary” to “look at me!” peppering the backstop with an MP5 on full auto

There is a difference in performance in soft point and full metal jacket, and 

It doubt it was a matter of not cutting the shit and going in first

There was something not right for the situation. I expect the wrong ARV that was second on scene, or ignoring the call were not needed right now by the first normal bobbies and it was possible to wait that half an hour with the situation contained  

It could be that the ARVs our and about have x standard ARV equipment,  but the situation needed y ARV equipment, or a qualified & experienced negotiator etc 

It it was an absolute deal with it now situation then everyone available would have been heading directly to the scene 

 

In the US the police are trained to go out with number one priority stay alive, better to Tib judged then carried in a coffin. One more dead criminal is one less to deal with, and if you make a mistake then at least you came home alive.  Whereas in the UK it’s primarily to calm the situation, avoid escalating further and deal with it in court bringing criminals to justice

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Just thinking out loud and not knowing a hell of a lot about them but how would simtac round fair as an alternative to conventional "less than lethal rounds" could they be used to distract rather than incapacitate?

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26 minutes ago, clumpyedge said:

Just thinking out loud and not knowing a hell of a lot about them but how would simtac round fair as an alternative to conventional "less than lethal rounds" could they be used to distract rather than incapacitate?

 

We've not had a situation worthey of that kind of action since the Brixton riots have we?

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