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AshOnSnow

Sub SP85 springs?

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Looking for a way to increase the ROF on my CQB AEG, the max distance in site is 15-20m. Currently shooting with an SP85 at 310fps (tightbore, upgraded cylinder, air nozzle and hop unit pushed it from the original 320 up to 365, so I fitted a guarder SP85 which dropped it down to the 310 mark. Still happy to sacrifice more fps - say down to 280 - for an extra boost in ROF. Currently using an 11.1V LiPo, but I would hesitate to use higher voltage batteries for risk of damaging the gearbox.

 

I've read about people cutting down springs, also things to do with gear ratios, but some more advice and info would be appreciated before I do anything up that alley.

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As you reduce the spring rate you also reduce the piston acceleration. If the piston can't compete it's stroke before the sector gear comes round again... That's premature engagement and it is A Bad Thing.

To increase rate of fire you actually need to increase the piston acceleration and hence the spring rate. You reduce fps back down to what's acceptable by reducing the stroke by removing teeth from the pick up side of the sector gear. Except it's never quite that simple...

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15 minutes ago, Hangtight said:

As you reduce the spring rate you also reduce the piston acceleration. If the piston can't compete it's stroke before the sector gear comes round again... That's premature engagement and it is A Bad Thing.

To increase rate of fire you actually need to increase the piston acceleration and hence the spring rate. You reduce fps back down to what's acceptable by reducing the stroke by removing teeth from the pick up side of the sector gear. Except it's never quite that simple...

 

I see what you mean. So reducing spring strength works but only to a point, and after that you actually need stronger springs to act fast enough?

 

So it's more of a gearbox issue than a spring issue now.

 

Are there ways to further upgrade the gearbox to be able to cope with higher voltages? The shop warned that more than an 11.1 could damage it. From what you say, I'm wondering if a 6.23mm barrel and an SP110 would actually at some point be a wise investment if there were a way to strengthen the gearbox to take higher voltages?

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Gearboxes aren't too fussed at the speed they run. V2 gearboxes can quite happily do 30+ rps on a single sector gear but some are made of better material, or have more material in the right place to give the strength to run stronger springs. The piston needs to be able to take the extra abuse, the gears need to be able to take the higher loads and everything needs to be set up right. The motor needs to be good enough to run at higher voltages and a Mosfet is required to switch the higher currents, as well as the wiring and connectors being up to the job.

If you get the internal set up right there's no need to run higher than 11.1. My guns run 7.4v and get 20rps with nice trigger response.

What guns is it, and what rate of fire does it have at the moment?

If it's already running around 20rps why do you feel you need more, especially at short engagement distances?

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Stick with the barrel you've got. 6.23 and a stronger spring won't gain you anything. If you want to get to around 30rps then that is completely doable with standard gearing, the right motor and your 11.1v battery. An M110 spring and short stroke with the right piston (low weight, high strength). Proper shim job, careful assembly and decent mags that can feed fast enough.

But you won't be very popular with other players at short ranges!

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be careful with ROF crap - we have all seen the results of:

 

"Let's try it with this - OOOhhh crap that don't sound good"

 

General rule of thumb(s)

Most guns out of box shoot at about 13rps on a good 7.4v or 8.4v

(some a little less some like ICS seem a touch faster than average G&G speed)

Most on here will run in about the 20's....

(well I would of thought imho that is about a comfortable tweak onperformance)

Some just under say 18rps, some a bit more high twenties getting into thirties

 

Simply reasoning once you get into low/mid twenties the gun starts to overspin (piston appearing in rear window)

Or with lower springs she starts to double fire sometimes on semi

 

THIS IS THE GUN TALKING TO YOU - YOU ARE STARTING TO TAKE THE PI$$ !!!

 

Proceed at your own risk - the faster you go the more you risk stripping pistons, faster wear & stuff burning out etc....

 

Getting a gun to run faster depends how much faster you wish to go - hence 20's is a wise limit to aim for

here is a very good guide....

 

http://www.airsoftsociety.com/forums/f10/legacys-guide-building-high-speed-aeg-87504/

 

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT

 

IT IS 'MERICAN - they use higher limits with higher springs usually 400fps out of box is fine

So they keep m120 springs and can run at up to 30rps without to much modding

WE CAN'T - we use m100's so hence our limits without more modding is a max of 25rps

With a lower spring like m85/90 you should be going easy on 20rps max

 

SO PLEASE DO NOT LOOK AT LEGACY's GUIDE AND TAKE AS 101% GOSPEL !!!!

 

I posted it not as a UK speed guide but more to demonstrate that increasing response/rof does require some work

(it is not as many of us thought a case of whacking up the juice or shoving in faster motors etc....)

Yes you can tweak it a bit but their are limits to how far you can push $hit in its present state before mods required

 

TBH - if you bought a CM007 and using it for CQB with lower limits on a 363mm barrel

 

EDIT - f*ck me it is 390mm barrel !!!

http://www.taiwangun.com/en/electric/cm-007-full-metal-p-j

 

(probably have option to SS 2 teeth max) 

Think I might have bought a slightly shorter barrel gun say 275-300mm & go for SS 3 or maybe 4 but 3 is my limit

 

The ShortStroking crap is really for when you wish to push stuff probably beyond the margins of moderation

And like all tweaking/modding it never is quite so straight forward sometimes

 

Personally - think you could/should aim for 20's, replace tamiya with deans etc.....

see how you go on moderate juice for now....

IF or rather WHEN it busts - THEN replace bits n bobs with better/faster stuff doing the tweaking required etc.....

 

Silly ROF's are just dick's trying to overcompensate for their lack of skill (usually)

And YES THAT INCLUDES ME !!!!

I'm so $hit I really do need all the help/response I can get from my toy gun

Still get taken out by a 12 year old with a JBBG

OR

A bada$$ player who switches to his secondary and removes me from game with a quick pop pop

(actually it doesn't have to be a really good player - this is quite a regular thing)

 

Honestly - it isn't the gun but the player etc...

sure a good snappy gun helps but a snappy high rof toy gun is not the be all & end all we all think

If you are really crap with little hope of improvement like moi then ok you need all the help you can get

 

If you think you are getting better each time then perhaps leave the gun alone for a while & enjoy it as is

Just get out there and use it, learn how to be a better player than worry too much how fast your gun shoots

 

EDIT - minor update but kind of important....

 

There are numerous mistakes new owners can make

well yeah there is learning hop adjustment, safety common sense, not to fit kitchen sink on toy gun

 

BUT 2 common mistakes to wreck guns new owners can make....

 

Taking the pi$$ as explained but also if/when you get a jam in barrel...

We have all seen/done it - flick to full auto and try to clear the jam....

Great way to shred pistons !!!!

The gun is jammed - use the rod if she doesn't clear dry firing on SEMI !!!

Trying to clear a jammed gun on auto is asking for trouble

The jam is blocking the air escaping so the piston won't release and return at max speed

So the piston is returning slower and thus the risk of PE/PME piston stripping greatly increases

In other words - you can learn the hard way and try to clear the jam on auto but wreck your piston

Or you can save yourself going home with a wrecked gun by using the jam/cleaning rod

 

The other mistake is trigger discipline - obviously safety stuff but also when firing

Sometimes releasing the trigger too early on semi it gets stuck in a dead zone

This seems to happen more on slower guns that take a bit longer to cycle completely

Slightly snappier guns that complete the cycle a bit quicker suffer less

(though it is often down to operator knowing their gun)

It can also happen going from full auto to semi - the Cut Off Lever is slightly raised

and stuck between going into semi (COL under trigger trolley)

or not just high enough for COL to slip above trolley

 

DO NOT FORCE THE TRIGGER - YOU JUST BUST/WEAR OUT THE TRIGGER TROLLEY

 

flick to auto, quick burst and she should fire properly again

If you force the trigger in this "dead zone" you will promote much quicker wear on trolley

(you will shorten the lifespan of the trigger/trolley - so don't force the gun to fire)

 

There are probably a number of other examples but those 2 are quite common mistakes

These are the sort of things you learn and many many other important things too

Stuff like that & learning to be a better player are way more important than a few extra rps

 

soz for long waffle (again)

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4 hours ago, Sitting Duck said:

be careful with ROF crap - we have all seen the results of:

 

"Let's try it with this - OOOhhh crap that don't sound good"

 

General rule of thumb(s)

Most guns out of box shoot at about 13rps on a good 7.4v or 8.4v

(some a little less some like ICS seem a touch faster than average G&G speed)

Most on here will run in about the 20's....

(well I would of thought imho that is about a comfortable tweak onperformance)

Some just under say 18rps, some a bit more high twenties getting into thirties

 

Simply reasoning once you get into low/mid twenties the gun starts to overspin (piston appearing in rear window)

Or with lower springs she starts to double fire sometimes on semi

 

THIS IS THE GUN TALKING TO YOU - YOU ARE STARTING TO TAKE THE PI$$ !!!

 

Proceed at your own risk - the faster you go the more you risk stripping pistons, faster wear & stuff burning out etc....

 

Getting a gun to run faster depends how much faster you wish to go - hence 20's is a wise limit to aim for

here is a very good guide....

 

http://www.airsoftsociety.com/forums/f10/legacys-guide-building-high-speed-aeg-87504/

 

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT

 

IT IS 'MERICAN - they use higher limits with higher springs usually 400fps out of box is fine

So they keep m120 springs and can run at up to 30rps without to much modding

WE CAN'T - we use m100's so hence our limits without more modding is a max of 25rps

With a lower spring like m85/90 you should be going easy on 20rps max

 

SO PLEASE DO NOT LOOK AT LEGACY's GUIDE AND TAKE AS 101% GOSPEL !!!!

 

I posted it not as a UK speed guide but more to demonstrate that increasing response/rof does require some work

(it is not as many of us thought a case of whacking up the juice or shoving in faster motors etc....)

Yes you can tweak it a bit but their are limits to how far you can push $hit in its present state before mods required

 

TBH - if you bought a CM007 and using it for CQB with lower limits on a 363mm barrel

 

EDIT - f*ck me it is 390mm barrel !!!

http://www.taiwangun.com/en/electric/cm-007-full-metal-p-j

 

(probably have option to SS 2 teeth max) 

Think I might have bought a slightly shorter barrel gun say 275-300mm & go for SS 3 or maybe 4 but 3 is my limit

 

The ShortStroking crap is really for when you wish to push stuff probably beyond the margins of moderation

And like all tweaking/modding it never is quite so straight forward sometimes

 

Personally - think you could/should aim for 20's, replace tamiya with deans etc.....

see how you go on moderate juice for now....

IF or rather WHEN it busts - THEN replace bits n bobs with better/faster stuff doing the tweaking required etc.....

 

Silly ROF's are just dick's trying to overcompensate for their lack of skill (usually)

And YES THAT INCLUDES ME !!!!

I'm so $hit I really do need all the help/response I can get from my toy gun

Still get taken out by a 12 year old with a JBBG

OR

A bada$$ player who switches to his secondary and removes me from game with a quick pop pop

(actually it doesn't have to be a really good player - this is quite a regular thing)

 

Honestly - it isn't the gun but the player etc...

sure a good snappy gun helps but a snappy high rof toy gun is not the be all & end all we all think

If you are really crap with little hope of improvement like moi then ok you need all the help you can get

 

If you think you are getting better each time then perhaps leave the gun alone for a while & enjoy it as is

Just get out there and use it, learn how to be a better player than worry too much how fast your gun shoots

 

EDIT - minor update but kind of important....

 

There are numerous mistakes new owners can make

well yeah there is learning hop adjustment, safety common sense, not to fit kitchen sink on toy gun

 

BUT 2 common mistakes to wreck guns new owners can make....

 

Taking the pi$$ as explained but also if/when you get a jam in barrel...

We have all seen/done it - flick to full auto and try to clear the jam....

Great way to shred pistons !!!!

The gun is jammed - use the rod if she doesn't clear dry firing on SEMI !!!

Trying to clear a jammed gun on auto is asking for trouble

The jam is blocking the air escaping so the piston won't release and return at max speed

So the piston is returning slower and thus the risk of PE/PME piston stripping greatly increases

In other words - you can learn the hard way and try to clear the jam on auto but wreck your piston

Or you can save yourself going home with a wrecked gun by using the jam/cleaning rod

 

The other mistake is trigger discipline - obviously safety stuff but also when firing

Sometimes releasing the trigger too early on semi it gets stuck in a dead zone

This seems to happen more on slower guns that take a bit longer to cycle completely

Slightly snappier guns that complete the cycle a bit quicker suffer less

(though it is often down to operator knowing their gun)

It can also happen going from full auto to semi - the Cut Off Lever is slightly raised

and stuck between going into semi (COL under trigger trolley)

or not just high enough for COL to slip above trolley

 

DO NOT FORCE THE TRIGGER - YOU JUST BUST/WEAR OUT THE TRIGGER TROLLEY

 

flick to auto, quick burst and she should fire properly again

If you force the trigger in this "dead zone" you will promote much quicker wear on trolley

(you will shorten the lifespan of the trigger/trolley - so don't force the gun to fire)

 

There are probably a number of other examples but those 2 are quite common mistakes

These are the sort of things you learn and many many other important things too

Stuff like that & learning to be a better player are way more important than a few extra rps

 

soz for long waffle (again)

Thanks for taking the time to reply with all that!

 

It's not the CM007, that's what I use for the woodland and big open sites like yesterday - managed to get one of the site techs to have a fiddle and bring to 346-348fps consistently.

 

For this, I have an ASG MP5

 

It's shooting at around 14-16rps at the moment with the SP85 and 11.1V

 

Ideally I'd like to push that up to 20 or just above.

 

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Probably just getting it properly serviced with a decent shim and lubrication might do that! 14-16rps on 11.1v isn't all that impressive...

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20 minutes ago, AshOnSnow said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply with all that!

 

It's not the CM007, that's what I use for the woodland and big open sites like yesterday - managed to get one of the site techs to have a fiddle and bring to 346-348fps consistently.

 

For this, I have an ASG MP5

 

It's shooting at around 14-16rps at the moment with the SP85 and 11.1V

 

Ideally I'd like to push that up to 20 or just above.

 

 

That is $hit for 11.1v, very $hit tbh

Think the motor is f*cked is my first guess replace with shs torque ffs or something

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