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Katana

Will I get PME?

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So just finished a new build as old one was even more stressful and died after use so new specs are:

 

Lonex Gearbox - 8mm Bearings

SHS 16:1 gears

Lonex bearing spring guide

SHS lightened 14 tooth piston with AOE corrected

Lonex POM piston head

Lonex cylinder

Lonex cylinder head

Lonex tappet plate

Lonex nozzle

Gate Titan

ASG 30k Motor

Guarder M90 Spring

 

I know the whole gearbox isn't necessary to post but what the hell. Anyway this is what I am worried about...

 

Because of the weak spring I am worried that I am snapping all kinds of sh*t up inside the gearbox. RPS is definitely around or above 30 and maybe 31 or 32

 

I could Short stroke the gearset and I do have my old lonex spring which was an m120 with a few coils cut off and I ran -3 teeth on the sector but I literally pretty much only have 11.1v lipo's and really enjoy the insane TR + If I can help it, I would rather not do the whole SS thing because it is annoying but if it is necessary I can still do it. 

 

I mean could also also grab a pdi 6.08 barrel instead which should lower the fps so that I can put that lonex spring in which is probably more like an m115 or m110 now and not need to short stroke. Again, I'd rather not as I have a prommy in there right now at 6.03 and it gives out some good results. Anyone know?

 

Thanks guys

 

 

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Just short stroke, it's not difficult (15 minutes with a dremel?), you'll get better trigger response and it'll greatly reduce the chance of premature engagement, especially with the faster gears.

If you've spent all that money and time already, just buy an M100/110 for a few quid.

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21 minutes ago, Dechande said:

Just short stroke, it's not difficult (15 minutes with a dremel?), you'll get better trigger response and it'll greatly reduce the chance of premature engagement, especially with the faster gears.

If you've spent all that money and time already, just buy an M100/110 for a few quid.

 

True but I don't want to do it if I don't have to. I want to work out if I simply have to first before going through with it. I'm thinking that the lightened piston changes things slightly.

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Think you are close to it myself (and so do you or you wouldn't be asking)

in fact I'm amazed she isn't over-spinning or double firing but the Titan's AB is kicking in to lessen the over spin

 

Running the gun on full auto is where you will wreck it

semi with AB you will be ok as piston is stopped asap before you risk hitting the fan

 

OK - how is the piston head fitted to piston ???

did you use the bearings at piston head - if so lose them

 

buy some of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Nylon-Plastic-SPACERS-Standoff-Washer-M3-M4-M5-M6-M8-M10-or-M13-12-PACK-/331684716193?var=&hash=item4d39f31ea1:m:m83Kn_qgDKqTDOiMEmnM_Tw

 

15mm diameter x 10mm thick & maybe 5mm thickness

 

On your piston you probably have this:

 

Image result for Lonex POM piston head

 

get rid of these bearing/race stuff for starters....

Those 2 x races/washers & bearing weigh about 3.5gms and they compress the spring by about 4.5 - 5mm 

 

Now take a 10mm spacer if you wish to SS

or a 5mm if you don't but I advise that you do SS with a 10mm spacer

you may need to widen the M5 hole in those spacers to fit the collar mount through - no biggy

now add a race if you like to ensure the nylon spacer doesn't get chewed up over time from spring

(not an absolute must if the end of spring isn't sharp or have a 'ooky bit or burr on it)

 

PcQy4i3.jpg

 

now you have a thickness that is now 11mm AND weighs 2.5gms !!!

So you have saved 1gram - wow (Every little helps as Tesco says)

Plus 6mm extra spring compression !!!!

 

EDIT - in case you haven't figured, you will need a 5mm longer M3 bolt though

(old gearbox case bolt lying around perhaps ??? Or Fleabay M3 aprox 15mm - 18mm)

 

This now means you can remove the first two teeth on the sector gear going from 16 down to 14 teeth

The spring will still be compressed the exact same but the stroke is 6mm shorter and piston is 1gm less too

 

This theory bit on paper is the exact same BUT there is a slight tiny thing to take into account though

The stroke is shorter which if you have a ported cylinder will still be the exact same - volume wise that is

HOWEVER - think of the piston & its release like a standing 1/4mile at Santa Pod say....

Your official 1/4 mile is now say 10 yards shorter so your actual top max speed crossing the line may be slightly less

Not much at all tbh but all the same need to point out a possible tiny drop say 5fps

yes you lost 2 x 15fps from removing 2 teeth on sector but the extra 6mm spring compression claws that back

So you should get the same figure but the slightly shorter release or run-up

means the final speed or max acceleration is a whisker down so to speak - reckon about 5fps

 

Now on the other hand you could SS more/less than 2 teeth but depends on your barrel

if you got a full 455mm then no you can't SS at all really coz you need a full stroke

at say 380 or less - well a 363mm you can SS 2 teeth or perhaps 3 teeth no problem

 

Back to the build in question.......

 

16:1 gears are actually about 17.25:1 - aprox 8% not expected 12% increase over std 18:1 gears (18.65)

They offer little extra resistance in gearing to slow a released drive chain/motor so overspin or piston appearing in window

(13:1 & 12:1 gears are much more strenuous or a steeper hill start in helping to slow drive chain on non-AB mosfets)

Anyway you got AB in Titan so now biggy I guess but if possible tweak the AB to only moderate braking if possible

 

The 16:1 gears would likely put out a 19-20 rps on 7.4v

you are running (with quite a risk imho) 11.1v so this would get to say 30rps maybe a couple more coz of bearings

 

It is risky if you unleash hell on full auto as I explained

 

I certainly would strongly consider SS 2 or 3 teeth with a higher spring like m115

and/or spacers to compress the spring if needed on original or if fps is a smidge low after SS

 

Anything past 25rps on full stroke is starting to risk it a little....

the gun should be overspinning or getting near firing twice if AB is disabled/not fitted

a titchy gun like MP5k will likely need a m115 to produce anything near 340fps

due to short barrel so a MP5k could cycle a little faster than a full size AK47 perhaps

 

But in general around 25rps is about where you get overspinning bordering double firing

Reason you probably are not getting this is Titan's AB but I'm damn sure you would otherwise

 

We are not going to completely eliminate the overspinning just by taking off a couple of teeth

you would probably need to look at say 4 teeth & m120 - but then you gotta be careful if taking more teeth off

say 2+2 each side but that can mess with tappet release timing - so you trim tappet fin but add longer delay clip

or you take say 3+1 but still cycling at speeds you may start to effect the timing slightly.....

think it should be ok but tbh....

 

All we are concerned about is PE or PME smashing up stuff

So yeah just consider perhaps SS 2 teeth off the sector's first 2 teeth

DO NOT TAKE OFF THE LAST 2 TEETH !!!!

First 2 teeth that engage the piston first at the large initial pick up tooth

 

You can then put in the m115 or space up the existing spring by 6mm - the 2 x 3mm pitch teeth you remove

 

Phew- no doubt I have gone way overboard once again

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12 minutes ago, Katana said:

 

True but I don't want to do it if I don't have to. I want to work out if I simply have to first before going through with it. I'm thinking that the lightened piston changes things slightly.

 

If you are crapping yourself - don't

 

The 16:1 & 18:1 sector gears are the same - or should be

So you could take an old sector - 16:1 or ye olde 18:1 sector and grind the f*ck out of it

as long as it spaces/shims up ok with the rest of the shs set you will be fine to use an 18:1 SS sector gear

no need to muller the rack a couple of teeth as long as last tooth on sector is not a jumbo fatty tooth you are fine

 

If you are worried - grab a 18:1 ye olde sector - see if it spins ok in box

then dremel the hell out of it

 

it is when you bollox a 12 or 13:1 sector you end up kicking yourself coz you are a bit screwed

but 18:1 & 16:1 sectors are same

(should be)

 

Finally - if you ignore this risk of PME you may wreck your piston - maybe bevel if it smashes up

Then you will get not only PME but also be a bit upset like a tart with PMS

 

yes you could dial in some bells n whistles settings to lower rof I guess

(I don't have a fancy mosfet - damn thing costs more than many of my cheapo guns)

or run on 7.4v and be well safe but you would lose that snap you just fell in love with

 

It is up to you & your call in the end

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Thanks for the help Duck,

 

I'm going to look up some tutorials on the safest way to not f*ck my sh*t up short stroking. I kinda knew that I would have to do this beforehand anyway but didn't really want to believe it. I don't have any 18:1 gears by SHS lying around so I guess I just can't f*ck up haha.

 

I'll shave 3 teeth off of the sector gear on the pickup side and then if my fps is too low, I'll then do the piston head compression mod as you said. I believe the piston head does have the bearings installed but I am about to go back inside of it now to SS so then I'll know for sure. 

 

On the up side, the new asg motor I just picked up is a freaking beast. 16tpa just like the shs high torque but man this thing is built like a tank. I needed a new one because the SHS HT I had just died on me which was kinda weird but the amount of crap that kept building up on it was ridiculous and the Titan actually stopped working and gave me the error fault for damage to the sector gear which there was and a faulty motor but at least it is working now.

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34 minutes ago, Katana said:

 

I'll shave 3 teeth off of the sector gear on the pickup side and then if my fps is too low, I'll then do the piston head compression mod as you said. I believe the piston head does have the bearings installed but I am about to go back inside of it now to SS so then I'll know for sure. 

 

 

I'd just take 2 off tbh - you can take another tooth off easily

can't put it back on later if you went OTT

 

you got a chopped m120 Vs a m90 Guarder which is really a m100

So the m120 is at least a m115 or possible m110 if it was run in or faded like springs do

 

each tooth equates to ROUGHLY 15fps or m005 if you like

so 2 x teeth would knock off 30fps or m10 of that m120 that is likely a m110 I feel

 

if the spring is irregular and fitted correctly - tight coils at spring guide

then fitting ar$e about face - tight coils to the piston head will increase fps by about 10fps I have found

should be fitted correctly to assist in easier spring retraction

but tbh 10fps on 16:1 gears on beefy motor won't give it a hernia

(just a thought if you are trying to regain/lose a few fps after all this "fun")

 

I'd go for just two teeth first on the old chopped m120/115/110 spring and see how you go

than go too nutz - even with best maths n testing in a APS UAR it is still a bit of a guess work

(a less wild guess but all guns vary & all that a little)

 

Oh and that copper dust is the brushes & commutator wearing out on the SHS

I don't think SHS's love 11.1v too much, there was geeky link about brush composition

The correct brushes are firmer but their make up was different that they didn't wear

or wear the commutator as much as softer brushes or something way over my head

something to do with different wear patterns on the commutator indicating this n that

(way way over my thick skull head - I run on 7.4v with say 13:1's and so far ok)

All motors suffer wear on the commutator over time but think SHS don't love 11.1v a lot

Hopefully the ASG might last longer considering the cost & build spec

 

Image result for motor commutator wear pic

 

or was it this one....

 

Related image

 

I don't know/care

 

rebuild the SHS with a lame stock std motor winding (say 22tpa+)

and you should get a very torquey motor to pull DMR or 12:1 stuff no problem

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I cut 2 teeth as you said but on my last build i had around 340 with the 3 teeth cut on 13:1 gears and the same spring i am going to use so if i am going to use the same setup but with 16:1 gears, would that equate to the same fps or does using 16:1 gears change the fps when it comes to short stroking some way?

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16 minutes ago, Katana said:

I cut 2 teeth as you said but on my last build i had around 340 with the 3 teeth cut on 13:1 gears and the same spring i am going to use so if i am going to use the same setup but with 16:1 gears, would that equate to the same fps or does using 16:1 gears change the fps when it comes to short stroking some way?

 

Nope - gears and motor speed or rate of fire do not alter the fps

 

well I guess you could argue going nutz full auto generate friction heat wear in o-ring causing seals to lessen blah x 3

But f*ck me that is splitting hairs on a flea or something.....

 

Nope - gear ratios n stuff don't effect the fps - that is down to stroke/compression/volume & crap

you should get the same fps on semi regardless of gearing

stroke length - yes but ratio nope

 

Each gun is slightly slightly different....

you can try the wider barrel if fps is a smidge high and not happy with shooting

or take off another tooth if she is shooting say 355 once hop is all dialed in correctly

then another tooth should get her down to 340fps

but you would be kicking yourself if you find at a max of 325fps and hop needs a tweak etc...

or that would drop to 310 or less from 325 if you chose the 6.08

 

I'd rather go down a smidge at a time than lop it off and regret it

A pity you not got a spare sector - I got a couple of SHS's 16:1 sectors I'll never use

(got one here left over coz used the 16:1 spur & bevel (not sector - dohhh) in the FH HC05 DSG)

So if you balls it up lmk & I'll send you a couple 16:1 sectors if you need them

I won't use them I don't think

 

So with that in mind if you wanna say WTF & chance it then cut a 3rd tooth off

(just going by your own findings of how that spring worked out)

 

Not sure if the set was a gen 3 (likely) but should be 101% compatible

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24 minutes ago, Katana said:

I cut 2 teeth as you said but on my last build i had around 340 with the 3 teeth cut on 13:1 gears and the same spring i am going to use so if i am going to use the same setup but with 16:1 gears, would that equate to the same fps or does using 16:1 gears change the fps when it comes to short stroking some way?

 

Yeah WTF - cut off a 3rd tooth if you are sure the spring was pushing 340fps in same/similar gun

 

If it is well down then I'll send you another sector and you just cut 2 teeth off to put back say 15 fps

it is just sitting here doing nowt anyway....

 

60tPckE.jpg

 

see lazy bastid, hasn't moved for hours

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It's altogether and actually sounds healthier than it did with the m90 which is weird. The shimming hasn't changed at all or the motor height but it just sounds healthier. Strange....

 

Thanks for the help man. I won't be able to test the fps until the end of this month which is kind of a bummer but I'm sure it is about right. If it isn't then I'll probably buy an m115 or m120 to up it again as I think it will only benefit from the added spring strength. I'll chuck the m90 in some low stress, random slow build which I could whip up pretty soon and use that as a backup. 

 

Thanks again man. 

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Seems like my fps has taken a nose dive meaning that there is a tappet plate timing issue but I did shave off from the pickup side. Is it possible that my sector gear shimming is too high and the tappet plate is rubbing against it? I don't have a sector delay chip on my sector gear so maybe I need to add one?

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9 minutes ago, Katana said:

Seems like my fps has taken a nose dive meaning that there is a tappet plate timing issue but I did shave off from the pickup side. Is it possible that my sector gear shimming is too high and the tappet plate is rubbing against it? I don't have a sector delay chip on my sector gear so maybe I need to add one?

 

you sure the hop/box went back ok if it was working ok before ?

if the screw or stock tube M5 bolt goes in real tight the front of box can tip up and scrape for crap seal

 

you sure the hop is pushed back correctly to seal against box ???

if it was working ok before

 

Normally spur is shimmed low with say a 0.15mm shim & a thin one on top if required

(SHS gears are quite chunky which leaves little room to shim if bushings/bearings are a bit chunky too)

Sector is normally spaced half & half - with bearings I'm guessing say 0.20 on both sides of sector

 

Delay clip - might need one @ 30rps

http://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/gears/zci-gear-delayer

nice clip and fit either way too

 

think you might need to investigate for hop/box alignment first

then if no joy then delve deeper but unless your sector is shimmed high tappet should reset fine on release

you can check clearance by placing tappet in other half of box, then the sector gear to check for rubbing etc...

 

PITA these bloody guns

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I dont think it is alignment as I haven't changed any of the pats like the hop up but could of put it back together with something a bit off so after checking that, it doesn't seem to be alignment. 

 

I fitted a sector delay chip and even on a 7.4v, the gun shoots about 30 feet and then plummets with hop on or off irregardless. 

 

Can you put a sector delay chip on the wrong way round because I have never fitted one and took the SHS one off of my 13:1 gears to fit the 16:1's but it doesn't seem to have helped at all?

 

My spur is shimmed very low with I think about 0.2mm on the bottom. I backed off the rear screw a bit and tried because it was screwed down quite a bit but it doesn't like it. Deffo looks like it is firing like it's about 190ish or something which obviously means there is some real sh*tty air seal somewhere. Just trying to find the little bastard. I put a lil extra grease on my sector just to see if I got this issue before I last put it back together so if it is all smudged as f*ck, maybe that'll show it. I'm using the abbey lt2 gun grease and I saw that it was kind of sticky in low amounts and I put some of that on the sides of the tappet plate so could that be it? Just a random thought, I doubt it but I suppose it is worth mentioning.

 

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25 minutes ago, Sacarathe said:

Someone mind decoding PME? Google wouldn't tell me what the E stands for.

 

Pre-mature engagement. When your piston can't reset in time for the sector to pick it up again so it scrapes against the piston rack early and wears both the sector and the piston down. The faster your gun shoots, the worse PME gets. Unless you up the power of the spring, lighten the piston etc.

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On 4/7/2017 at 5:01 PM, Katana said:

 

It's altogether and actually sounds healthier than it did with the m90 which is weird. The shimming hasn't changed at all or the motor height but it just sounds healthier. Strange....

 

 

This bit is throwing up some questions though....

 

Are you SURE the spring you put in is what you think it is ???

And as you said you can't chrono etc....

 

I'd be tempted to plop the m90 Guarder in there just to check stuff

no way should the fps drop that much unless perhaps the spring isn't what you think it is

even if you fit the spring previously in an AK 455mm full cylinder to get 340fps

You would of lost say 30fps on SS 2 teeth so is your barrel say 200mm  or something to drop over 100fps

(that is assuming the 340fps spring was being used a longer barrel like 455mm)

 

I'm thinking something is out of whack or the springs are not what you think/expect them to be

or you had a 455mm build and now a 200mm barrel to lose expected fps that much

or you got some springs mixed up

 

The bit where it sounds healthier - could be a lighter spring than before (as well as a slightly less stroke but not DSG stroke)

So the spring power is maybe much less and will sound healthier if it is really low

 

just wondering what happens if you swap springs - can't get no worse (would of thought)

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The spring is definitely correct, I put my Lonex spring back in it's packaging the second I took it out when it was taken apart the first time.

 

 I think the sounding healthier came from the motor height as the G&P grip is a tight fit for the motor so it gets wedged and I pushed it down beforehand and then put the motor plate on which may have put it in slightly too far which would explain why I coulnd't work out why it sounded fine a second ago and then now all of a sudden doesn't. I placed the motor in the next time I put the lonex spring in and let the motor plate push it down which made it seat correctly.

 

I have no idea the brand of the delayer that is inside but I thought it was an SHS which apparently it's not as this one is metal and not shaped like the universal ones but shaped like it should go a certain way round. I've switched the delayer around so it's facing the opposite way to how I installed it and am going to see if that helps. The gun was shooting wildly as well with obvious inaccuracy problems and more of a loss of compression than just an fps drop as it was extremely inconsistent.

 

I have my hop up/ everything outside of the gearbox setup like this:

 

Lonex Gearbox

 

Lonex Hop Up Unit - 4 o-rings added to push against the gearbox and seal (worked on my last setup with the 13:1's perfectly and nothing there has changed

 

Prommy hard flat nub

 

G&G green bucking - Flat hopped

 

363mm Prommy Barrel 6.03

 

Edit: With the sector clip switched around, I won't be able to see how she shoots til the morning

 

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is this the delayer...

 

Image result for delayer clip

 

or this one...

 

Image result for delayer clip

 

The first one can't be reversed coz it is chamfered a bit

 

The metal one goes one way only

The purpose is to hold the tappet back for a longer duration but not too long in higher speed guns

It is to help it feed better that is all, if the tappet is held back for too long the tappet timing can seal late at nozzle/hop

you can trim the fin to release it earlier to compensate and/or cut coils on tappet spring to get tappet returning faster

 

The laughable thing in all of this is DSG's don't/can't have delayer's but they feed ok - though need good mags

The delayer is not a must for general modest builds say @ 20rps

but @ 30rps it would help or assist on some weaker/picky mags that was all

 

I'd consider forget delayer atm as it may only add to the problem at this stage

check tappet spring is quite strong and the area inside box doesn't have any crap in front of it

 

Keep the box simple - remove delayer if your mags are good

also if you haven't glued the nozzle onto tappet yet (you should of)

then sand down the tappet plate front to jam nozzle a smidge more forward perhaps

 

Next thing is to very closely examine the sector and tappet plate fin at rest

Right by the axle shaft the fin can on some builds especially a mix n match build

The fin can get restricted by the sector's outer axle or copper sleeve the shim sits on

 

Related image

 

yes I know it is a v3 gearbox but the lower cut out area of fin is required to allow the fin to fully return

this may also happen if when you shave tappet plate front - might wish to go forward more

but might be restricted on the center of fin hitting the copper sleeve

 

NOW I'M NOT SAYING START TEARING UP YOUR LOVELY LONEX TAPPET PLATE FIN !!!!

I'M SAYING CHECK IT ISN'T STOPPING THE FIN GOING FULLY FORWARD

 

The odd thing is if/why she was ok but after SS the fps dropped so much or leak appeared

which was why I was suggestion was spring actually what it said on tin

I've got various bits mixed up before but ok we will go with spring was pushing a chopped m120/115

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Part II

 

The Lonex tappet plate is similar to some f*cking poxy CYMA M4's

they have slight cut-outs up front of box where they are thinner

and it is a f*cking pain but here some SHS tappets to go in

 

The original clear tappet clears the sector gear area no problem in pic 1:

 

PuySwQ2.jpg

 

OK but gotta mod other tappets up front - before/after in pic 2:

 

6LUaPNd.jpg

 

and in fitting the fin needed a slight trim to avoid hitting the outer collar of axle (brass/copper sleeve):

 

SIbmtms.jpg

 

 

Now also the fin might hit a shim on top of sector but hmmm doubt it but worth a check

can always slightly angle the outer edge of fin to assist it slipping past shim/bushing/bearing if risk of catching

I have had to do that a few times if I felt the edges of fin snagging

 

I'M NOT SAYING TEAR UP THE FIN - nope

BUT CHECK some stuff out

and only if you are 101% certain do you reach for fine needle files and stuff like that

It is a f*cking pain all round and I'd much rather not feel the urge to pi$$ball about with stuff if I felt it don't need it

 

I'm hoping some of this might give you a few ideas of crap to check next time you open the box

 

BUT BUT BUT BUT

 

BEFORE you go nutz let's check some crap out first without ripping box open just yet

 

Box in lower receiver with motor blah blah blah

get box just ready to fire - piston 75% retracted & tappet/nozzle fully forward 

NOW try with 3 hands to load a bb into barrel/hop

holding the hop/barrel up against the front of box

you should feel slight resistance if nozzle fully forward as it presses against bucking lips

try with the extra hand you don't have to steady the sods together and fire the gun

 

See how that shoots - would say chrono's but you might not have one

This is tricky bitch of a thing to do and may take a few attempts to get it to work/fire with it all held together

BUT the point of this should show if box issue inside

OR

An alignment issue of hop & box not sealing correctly or fully back etc....

 

You need to try to check & narrow down just where the heck the wheels started to loosen

and now they not quite rolling correctly no more

 

if the box still fires crap when you try to hold the box/hop together by hand after a few attempts

then yeah very likely it is tappet nozzle or something related not allowing stuff to seal properly

 

if the gun fires eventually holding it by hand then it might be an alignment issue

 

it is probably the tappet plate and or the fin catching on shim/sector gear/sector's axle

but need to check all crap out just in case than just dive in & jump to conclusions

 

hope some of this helps

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Thanks for the info man I really do appreciate it because I had no idea so much could affect the tappet plate timing. I shortened a new spring because I installed a fresh tappet spring after the last one that was also shortened became really weak which must mean that the last person who I gave it to must have used some sh*tty spring for the job. Another reason why I insist on working on my gun myself from now on instead of giving it to local shops unless I hear some seriously good things about a certain tech. I don't know if this fixed it or switching the delayer around but it is that metal one you put up and I believe it was round the wrong way after looking at some installs online of delay chips but I had no idea as I had never installed one.

 

I have no idea what spring he used but upon shortening the new spring, I also checked to see if the tappet snagged up on the sector at the fully forward position which it did not and so threw it all back together and BOOM!

 

She works...No idea of the fps but it's consistent which is what I'm looking for and as long as she shoots above 310 and below 350, I won't touch anything else.

 

I can take my gun apart to the gearbox and put it back together in like 15-20 minutes now which is crazy considering the first time I ever had it apart, it took me 3 hours. Shimming didn't take half the time as well and I feel like I'm just generally getting better at working sh*t out around the gearbox but there is still a lot I don't know. 

 

Just a quick question though for future purchasing, how do the Lonex 16:1's stack up against the SHS 16:1's? Aside from quality control, are they more durable? Have you had any experience with them?

 

Other than that, thanks for helping me out yet again with le pew sticks. I can speak for everyone when I say that I honestly really do appreciate you taking the time to help me and others out around the forum. 

 

 

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Part III - or a follow up bit....

 

I know you have assembled Lonex this & Lonex that with more Lonex bits n bobs...

AND yes in theory these Lonex bits in a Lonex box with a Lonex Hop unit "should" work 101%

BUT sometimes that doesn't mean it will always be the case or the level of detailed checking can be forgotten

 

The Lonex nozzle is according to AirLabs 


Nozzle Lengths:

19.63mm -  AK Series
20.40mm - MP5-A4/A5/SD5/SD6 Series
20.73mm - P90 Series
20.77mm - M16A1 VN/XM177E2/CAR-15 Series
20.96mm - LMG Series
21.05mm - MP5-K/PDW Series
21.13mm - PSG-1 Series
21.20mm - G3-A3/A4/SG-1/MC51 Series
21.22mm - M16A2/M4A1/SR16 Series
22.26mm - SIG 550/551/552 Series 
24.27mm - G36 Series 
24.60mm - AUG Series 
24.61mm - M14 Series

 

presume you have got the 21.22mm one

BUT that is still about 0.20 or 0.25mm shorter than a SHS Red M4 one @ 21.50mm

(think these were too long and feel they have shortened their nozzles to 21.45mm lately)

 

You don't HAVE to use ALL LONEX PARTS

But the point I'm try to make is that there is still quite a fine line of $hit working and not working

 

Now nozzle lengths vary - an M4 can be like a little over 21mm to say 21.5mm

may not seem much but half a mm can be difference on sealing or lips blowing

Use a nozzle too long and the nozzle won't fully clear the feed tube to chamber a bb at speed

it isn't such a thing of just holding the nozzle back a little longer if she doesn't just clear to chamber a 5.95mm bb

 

Now the SHS Tappets retract a little more than other tappet plates - this is a fact

The round delay clip I use if you look very very carefully there is a whisker more material covering the pin

So again this round delay clip will retract the tappet plate a whisker further back

Combine the SHS Tappet & the Copper delay clip and you can retract the nozzle about 1mm further back

Meaning it will feed better as nozzle will clear hop feed tube

HOWEVER.....

Combining the SHS tappet & the round delayer the tappet/nozzle can very likely get retracted TOO FAR BACK

It can bottom out on the piston head or edge of cylinder !!!!

So before people rush out and copy everything like for like - you need to check stuff out and further mods perhaps

 

I strongly advise checking the sector & tappet in top half of gearbox

(it is a bit wobbly doing this close checking in with all the gears but see how the retraction varies....)

 

Original tappet and sector gear - pin was fat so couldn't fit the delay on a chubby tappet pin:

 

rl8QBnM.jpg

 

Now SHS tappet - filed at front only, delay clip see the retraction difference:

 

5sHJRpe.jpg

 

NOW THIS WILL GET WRECKED so don't just slap this together but showing the retraction difference

(you need to space cylinder head and grind cylinder to clear this further retraction)

REALLY DON'T WORRY ABOUT THE DETAIL SO MUCH IN PICTURES - it was just an example of $hit varying

 

Now Nozzle lengths vary - quite a bit

a longer nozzle will seal on bucking lips better - but might not clear to chamber bb

BUT we can get the nozzle to shift forward a smidge more by sanding front of tappet plate

 

SHS's are 2.55mm and have sanded mine to about 2.05mm meaning nozzle should push 0.5mm further forward

 

All this bollocks means little on its own but slight variations and exact nozzles or slightly short nozzles

or come to that a bit of crap in front of tappet or hop not fully pushed very firmly back

 All of the above will contribute to a looser seal of nozzle to bucking

 

So we try to give a bit of help to ensure it seals as best as poissible

 

PLEASE - ignore the details on retraction to be honest at this moment in time

they were just examples to show the variations on retraction

retraction wasn't your problem - it was likely the forward return position effecting seals

We can sand or file the front of tappet to effectively push the nozzle forward a smidge

But there is a chance - slight chance the center of some tappet fins may hit the axle

So though the tappet got sanded down and it should push nozzle forward

it might not move forward if the fin is hitting the axle - jeeez

So sometimes a little material may need to be filed with a tiny needle file

(most of the tappet's retraction takes place up at the base of the fin - so no biggy)

I shortened the fin in case I decided to remove a tooth on release side

(probably won't tbh but just me going nutz while I was messing with SHS tappet)

So no need to copy everything I do and stuff - just a bit of overthinking or OCD I guess

 

V2's are a bit of a pain as I feel the total tappet movement is less in a V2 than a V3

A V2 gearbox usually has about 7.5mm to 8mm if you are lucky tappet retraction

(distance front of tappet travels from inside front of gearbox rest position)

A V3 often has more about 9.5mm so you can get a bigger window to play with

Meaning less finer tolerances of nozzle sealing & feeding/chambering a bb

(well unless you really did stuff badly or really got wrong nozzle in there)

 

To me a V2 has less room or tolerance for tappet nozzle window

So a bit more crap needs checking/modding if needed

Not all boxes are THIS bad - but there is deffo less margin of error imho

If a slightly short nozzle or bit of crap is in there or fin catches on shim/axle it won't seal 101%

If fin wears or too long nozzle used then feed issues may arise

Certain hops differ and the bucking lips or feed tube can sit a whisker forward/backwards

So you can see that one or two ever so slight variations can cause feed/seal issues

(especially with finer tolerances in tappet window or room for margins of error/wear)

 

Phew - well gone off on a bender I know....

Just check $hitloads is the answer - check everything andit will help reduce furtherissues

 

SHS Gears are lovely, not had Lonex gears but tbh they seem pretty decent

Most sets are fine unless they have been made pi$$ poorly

SHS's are quite chunky though, with thick chunky bushings there is little room to shim

The main issue in a gear set is how it runs - which should be fine but you can get the odd one

The Bevel gear is what matters, SHS and decent sets have 10 nice thick teeth on bevel

Plus they mesh nicely with SHS pinions and motors - this is important

Look at this crap thin teeth on the right - one bit of stress and all of them will fly off:

(NOT A SHS BEVEL  but a defective cheapo Big Dragon set - the sector's spindle was pi$$ed)

 

wgOKyWM.jpg

 

The stock bevel - only 4 latches has much more robust teeth to mesh with spur gear

Now I know these may or may not be tempered or treated BUT

At first glance I'd rather use the old stock 4 latch bevel anyday than chance the other bevel 

 

Gears are gears - it is what rolls best and what you feel is ok or will work best

Various people will prefer to use or stick certain brands they feel has worked fine for them

What matters most is how the stuff all fits together

I really don't think one size or one make/brand of parts suits all or never needs tweaking

Use what you feel will work best, examine & compare any replacement parts blah x 3

We are all still learning - screwing up and stuff like that

Each box is different but often builds are taking a little longer than previous ones

coz we are paying a little more attention to each detail than before

Yup, maybe getting better but doing stuff as best as possible rarely goes quickly 

 

hope some of this helps - though probably confused you and others way way more

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Wow that actually makes a lot of sense and ties on to my next new problem FFS :D.....

 

My gun will shoot on a 7.4 perfectly but won't shoot correctly on an 11.1 and I'm guessing that this is because the tappet plate is still not being held back for long enough even with the sector delay chip installed? Strange how it would work fine before with 35rps+ but switching to slower 16:1 gears and a nicer motor and putting out 30ish rps now will change so much. 

 

Every bb is feeding so that would mean that it isn't to do with the nozzle retracting back far enough to load the next bb and as you said that I didn't have a retraction problem but it's that it is being released too early? It can't be an air seal problem as it works fine on a 7.4v so it must be a timing issue.

 

Does the tappet plate on lower rps builds only need to retract far enough for the air nozzle to clear the feed tube for the next bb and on higher rps builds, the tappet plate needs to come back further so that it is released later? Although, if it was being held back for too long, would that also be an issue as the feeding would be fine but it would miss its chance to seal against the bucking as air is being cycled through the cylinder head?.

 

Ignoring the fact that it worked fine before the gear and motor changes, it can't be the nozzle length or how far it is going inside of the hop up to meet the bucking as again, it works fine on a 7.4v so it must be timing.

 

You mentioned that an SHS tappet plate retracts back for a longer period of time and I have a spare so is this worth trying because the nozzle being delayed slightly more would make the release slightly later which is maybe what I need? So long as what you posted doesn't happen like the tappet plate rubbing on the sector gear and such. I'm really tired right now so I may have to read what you posted again in the morning because I feel like I'm typing in circles I may give the shs tappet a go in the morning pending your input.

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Ouch - feel a migraine coming along........

 

1 hour ago, Katana said:

Wow that actually makes a lot of sense and ties on to my next new problem FFS :D.....

 

My gun will shoot on a 7.4 perfectly but won't shoot correctly on an 11.1 and I'm guessing that this is because the tappet plate is still not being held back for long enough even with the sector delay chip installed? Strange how it would work fine before with 35rps+ but switching to slower 16:1 gears and a nicer motor and putting out 30ish rps now will change so much. 

 

Every bb is feeding so that would mean that it isn't to do with the nozzle retracting back far enough to load the next bb and as you said that I didn't have a retraction problem but it's that it is being released too early? It can't be an air seal problem as it works fine on a 7.4v so it must be a timing issue.

 

The tappet plate is being held back enough or it couldn't chamber a bb

If you have taken the teeth off the sector at beginning and not the end then basic tappet timing could not be altered

The fitting of a delay clip like this:

 

Image result for shs delay clip

 

would of only delayed the tappet a smidge past its initial release point and released tappet

with about 4.5 teeth to go on piston retraction even if SS a couple of teeth coz the SS wouldn't of altered the tappet release

Add to this the newer spring and 30rps is not insane either

There is a very slim chance the delayer could be pulling the nozzle as last bits of air expel under compression

so the nozzle could just be getting pulled away or retracted for the next cycle as last bit of air is being expelled

But I doubt it tbh, think this timing shouldn't get very critical until 40 or more rps

Yes the delayer seems to start retraction a little earlier but well within tolerance I would of thought

 

BUT if push comes to shove you can remove the delayer to be sure....

 

Yes you can use the SHS Tappet but it will need modding - PITA

The sides at front are best done with a fine dremel cutting disc touching briefly at front to start to thin the tappet front

file the rest of it nicely about 1.25mm inwards and about 16.5mm back aprox to end up with a tapered SHS v2 tappet

Next reduce it from 2.5mm to nearly 2.0mm - file/sand the front of tappet plate

SERIOUSLY - you should do this for most instances using a v2 SHS tappet (probably v3 too)

If you look very very carefully at the locating ridge that the nozzle sits on.....

You will notice the ridge inside the U of the yoke/fork where tappet holds the nozzle

that ridge is slightly off center towards the back or cylinder head

 

hovRY3d.jpg

(it might not show up clearly coz hard to focus very close up)

the groove is deffo offset so you should sand tappet front on SHS

 

So there is more material on the front of tappet plate yoke/fork

So file it down about 0.5mm sand on emery/sand paper in circular motion on worktop etc....

(clockwise then counterclockwise etc... to try and ensure is is sanded fairly evenly)

Get it down to a thickness of 2.05mm or 2.1mm then check if she needs the fin slightly modded on sector's axle

 

Then try the damn thing WITHOUT a delay clip !!!!

The SHS tappet should retract the nozzle a smidge more imho

and if you sand the tappet plate front as described it should seal better

The fin could be chopped slightly but perhaps try it as is for now

The center part of the fin  "might"  need slight modding to clear the axle

but the thing is these SHS or RA tappets do retract a smidge more I have found and are about £3 from Pete/ak2m4

So you can mess about with experimenting with stuff without costing an arm & leg and get hold of them easily

Lot of people like SHS tappets BUT they can sometimes retract a bit too far on some boxes

But I like to use them as my first choice if I feel the need to replace original one if I'm not content

 

Please check the operation etc.... in both halves of the gearbox - especially the other half

you may not see the actual fin/cam in operation coz they are facing away/downwards from you

but you should see clearly the front of tappet plate retraction results if you understand

 

It is difficult to put into words where or what I would do 

but I think you are kind of getting the idea of what I mean and how I go about modding the SHS for Cyma/Lonex use

Hopefully bit of dremel on SHS to convert to Lonex tappet then sand the front and you should see slightly better results

 

There is a slight little edge on tappet plate front - roughly aim to sand that off = half a mm

 

PKglOHf.jpg

 

if SHS tappet looks a bit bent up or warped/crooked you can dump it in a cup of hot water

then 5 mins later you should be able to shape it straighter blah blah blah....

 

Need asprin or beer i think - my head is a bit fried too

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