Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
SCAR_Jester

Upgrade time! Need some pointers please!

Recommended Posts

So I love my ICS CXP - 16 L proline and want to make it better,

By better I mean snappier trigger response, little quieter (if possible) and generally just more torque [Will be playing a lot of CQB soon so not much point making a speed build but instead a high torque for the large amounts of semi-auto action.]

 

I've looked about and as far as I know the wires are good to go (16 awg teflon coated),

gears are metal but I will replace with some form of 13:1 high torque (please advise me on a make)

I will correct the AoE (got pads on the way)

I want to use an 11.1v lipo (on its way too) - So, age old question, to mosfet or not? (I know the theory just lack the experience)

piston upgrade?

And how do I go about decreasing the distance the trigger is pulled?

 

Thanks in advanced to any and all replies!

- Corky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hooooookay then.

 

First off 13:1 is a high SPEED set of gears not high TORQUE. What you actually want is a high torque MOTOR (ZCI, SHS, Lonex) coupled with high speed gears (ZCI, SHS Supershooter, Siegetek) or just an out and out high speed setup. High torque gearboxes are built to pull big springs for high FPS and generally aren't terribly "snappy".

If you're looking to improve your trigger response then a Mosfet - hardwired not plug and play - is the easiest way to do this. If you're planning on running an 11.1v LiPo then it's a must to stop you burning out your trigger contacts.

 

AoE correction using sorbo pads will help quieten your gearbox, also look at a Lonex POM piston head.

 

Trigger pull - http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/speed-m4-blade-trigger-silver OR just fit a BTC mosfet that replaces the trigger contact block.

 

While you're at it, get a set of shims because the gears you fit will not fit the same as the gears you take out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hooooookay then.

 

First off 13:1 is a high SPEED set of gears not high TORQUE. What you actually want is a high torque MOTOR (ZCI, SHS, Lonex) coupled with high speed gears (ZCI, SHS Supershooter, Siegetek) or just an out and out high speed setup. High torque gearboxes are built to pull big springs for high FPS and generally aren't terribly "snappy".

If you're looking to improve your trigger response then a Mosfet - hardwired not plug and play - is the easiest way to do this. If you're planning on running an 11.1v LiPo then it's a must to stop you burning out your trigger contacts.

 

AoE correction using sorbo pads will help quieten your gearbox, also look at a Lonex POM piston head.

 

Trigger pull - http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/speed-m4-blade-trigger-silver OR just fit a BTC mosfet that replaces the trigger contact block.

 

While you're at it, get a set of shims because the gears you fit will not fit the same as the gears you take out.

You're a star, thanks for the help once again!

So just aim for high speed then I assume? (I was going on the principal that torque was get off the line fast and get rid of inertia fast for semi-auto build or whatever)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You're a star, thanks for the help once again!

So just aim for high speed then I assume? (I was going on the principal that torque was get off the line fast and get rid of inertia fast for semi-auto build or whatever)

 

You're right with what you were thinking up to a point, that's why lots of people go the route suggested of mixing high speed gears with a high torque motor. The motor overcomes its inertia more quickly and the gears allow it the top end. Not as a rate of fire as with a high speed motor and not as high potential FPS as an all out torque setup.

 

The manufacturers mentioned were in order of cost by the way - cheapest (ZCI) to most expensive (Lonex/Siegetek) but they're all good. I'm about to do a build like this for a buddy in his MP5 with ZCI 13:1 gears, Lonex POM head, SHS Hi Torque motor, Core airseal nozzle and a ZCI piston. Sorbo pads from ProAirsoft and new set of shims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You're right with what you were thinking up to a point, that's why lots of people go the route suggested of mixing high speed gears with a high torque motor. The motor overcomes its inertia more quickly and the gears allow it the top end. Not as a rate of fire as with a high speed motor and not as high potential FPS as an all out torque setup.

 

The manufacturers mentioned were in order of cost by the way - cheapest (ZCI) to most expensive (Lonex/Siegetek) but they're all good. I'm about to do a build like this for a buddy in his MP5 with ZCI 13:1 gears, Lonex POM head, SHS Hi Torque motor, Core airseal nozzle and a ZCI piston. Sorbo pads from ProAirsoft and new set of shims.

Right that's perfect news to hear.

I'll fiddle with it and not bother with a motor replacement from the "ICS turbo 3000" right now, and see how it goes. but I might in the future.

 

Last question I promise (maybe)

Can you give me an idea of a good mosfet to buy? When I said I lack experience, that was as in 0 experience

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want great trigger response but not high rate of fire you I would recommend a ZCI High torque motor and a SHS 12:1 gear set. The ZCI is slow but has huge amounts of torque (it will happily pull an M170 spring on a 10:1 gear set)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right that's perfect news to hear.

I'll fiddle with it and not bother with a motor replacement from the "ICS turbo 3000" right now, and see how it goes. but I might in the future.

 

Last question I promise (maybe)

Can you give me an idea of a good mosfet to buy? When I said I lack experience, that was as in 0 experience

 

I swear by Gate Electronics ones. I have a Nano AB in my M4 and a Pico AAB in my AK. They're well built and a decent price with full instructions. If you don't need active braking then the SSR models are the ones to go for. Lots of places sell them (including Amazon).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I swear by Gate Electronics ones. I have a Nano AB in my M4 and a Pico AAB in my AK. They're well built and a decent price with full instructions. If you don't need active braking then the SSR models are the ones to go for. Lots of places sell them (including Amazon).

was thinking of an AB one but then again I have an external spring decompress button, also I don't care about expelling a few extra bb's on full auto if it saves me a few £ in a mosfet. Was looking into a gate's one already due to some of their sizes, but I'll look around for some cheaper ones perhaps.

 

thanks again, I think that's me sorted now

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty much what lozart said

Shs 13.1 gear set

Lonex blue piston

Lonex pom piston head

Lonex a2 titan motor

Gate nano ab mosfet

 

Do lose the turbo 3000 they are not bad but for £45 the lonex is better.

If you haven't changed to deans connectors already do that as well.

Change the trigger switch to a micro switch and get an adjustable trigger and away you go.

It will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger and be solid as well, as long as you shim it properly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty much what lozart said

Shs 13.1 gear set

Lonex blue piston

Lonex pom piston head

Lonex a2 titan motor

Gate nano ab mosfet

 

Do lose the turbo 3000 they are not bad but for £45 the lonex is better.

If you haven't changed to deans connectors already do that as well.

Change the trigger switch to a micro switch and get an adjustable trigger and away you go.

It will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger and be solid as well, as long as you shim it properly.

Thanks, and yeah I got plenty of shims lying around! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A word of caution if building that spec box....

 

use 7.4v ffs NOT 11.1v to test fire it

that spec build will be hitting 25 to 30rps on 7.4v 25c lipo

 

You connect an 11.1v to that box without doing more work I will guarantee two things

 

It will deffo double cycle on semi unless an AB mosfet fitted

(may even start to double cycle now n then on 7.4v)

 

As 11.1v is 50% more juice that 7.4v (3 cells rather than 2 x 3.7v cells)

it will run at nigh on 50% faster......

eg: 37 to 45rps and at that speed your new piston will DEFFO Pre Engage and strip out say teeth 5, 4 & 3

 

PE can take place at around 30rps upwards on stock spring & piston

(it "can" get very close to PE at 25rps but only if your piston is very heavy or sluggish (binding a bit inside the box))

 

Some torque motors are not much faster than stock ferrite motors - perhaps the ZCI one but can pull a tank

Others are quite torquey but very quick too like shs or Big Dragon M160

so it is difficult to guess what your rps might be coming in at but I firmly believe it would be in the 25-30 range on 12:1 gears on 7.4v

 

Having recently shredded 2 pistons by taking the pi$$ a bit I strongly urge you to go easy when testing that build

An AB fet will stop the double cycle on semi but won't do jack to stop PE on full auto

The last piston to shred on 11.1v was actually short stroked 2 teeth on a m115-m120 spring but at 45+ it didn't make the 2nd round on full auto

31.5 on 7.4v but smashed f*ck on 11.1v

 

maybe 14:1 gears, m110 spring and the shs blue 3 steel tooth is lovely n light @11.5gms, remove 1 tooth off piston/sector

 

up to you what you chuck in there but seriously test on 7.4v first and depending on results and how much you did your homework....

then decide if she might be ok to risk it on 11.1v with an aprox 50% higher rof

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A word of caution if building that spec box....

 

use 7.4v ffs NOT 11.1v to test fire it

that spec build will be hitting 25 to 30rps on 7.4v 25c lipo

 

You connect an 11.1v to that box without doing more work I will guarantee two things

 

It will deffo double cycle on semi unless an AB mosfet fitted

(may even start to double cycle now n then on 7.4v)

 

As 11.1v is 50% more juice that 7.4v (3 cells rather than 2 x 3.7v cells)

it will run at nigh on 50% faster......

eg: 37 to 45rps and at that speed your new piston will DEFFO Pre Engage and strip out say teeth 5, 4 & 3

 

PE can take place at around 30rps upwards on stock spring & piston

(it "can" get very close to PE at 25rps but only if your piston is very heavy or sluggish (binding a bit inside the box))

 

Some torque motors are not much faster than stock ferrite motors - perhaps the ZCI one but can pull a tank

Others are quite torquey but very quick too like shs or Big Dragon M160

so it is difficult to guess what your rps might be coming in at but I firmly believe it would be in the 25-30 range on 12:1 gears on 7.4v

 

Having recently shredded 2 pistons by taking the pi$$ a bit I strongly urge you to go easy when testing that build

An AB fet will stop the double cycle on semi but won't do jack to stop PE on full auto

The last piston to shred on 11.1v was actually short stroked 2 teeth on a m115-m120 spring but at 45+ it didn't make the 2nd round on full auto

31.5 on 7.4v but smashed f*ck on 11.1v

 

maybe 14:1 gears, m110 spring and the shs blue 3 steel tooth is lovely n light @11.5gms, remove 1 tooth off piston/sector

 

up to you what you chuck in there but seriously test on 7.4v first and depending on results and how much you did your homework....

then decide if she might be ok to risk it on 11.1v with an aprox 50% higher rof

How would my JG G36 handle a 3s (11.1v) Lipo ?? Apart from a high speed motor & mosfet & M100 spring, everything else is stock

 

I only ask cause of what you've said duck, I can put the standard motor back in if neccesary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A word of caution if building that spec box....

 

use 7.4v ffs NOT 11.1v to test fire it

that spec build will be hitting 25 to 30rps on 7.4v 25c lipo

 

You connect an 11.1v to that box without doing more work I will guarantee two things

 

It will deffo double cycle on semi unless an AB mosfet fitted

(may even start to double cycle now n then on 7.4v)

 

As 11.1v is 50% more juice that 7.4v (3 cells rather than 2 x 3.7v cells)

it will run at nigh on 50% faster......

eg: 37 to 45rps and at that speed your new piston will DEFFO Pre Engage and strip out say teeth 5, 4 & 3

 

PE can take place at around 30rps upwards on stock spring & piston

(it "can" get very close to PE at 25rps but only if your piston is very heavy or sluggish (binding a bit inside the box))

 

Some torque motors are not much faster than stock ferrite motors - perhaps the ZCI one but can pull a tank

Others are quite torquey but very quick too like shs or Big Dragon M160

so it is difficult to guess what your rps might be coming in at but I firmly believe it would be in the 25-30 range on 12:1 gears on 7.4v

 

Having recently shredded 2 pistons by taking the pi$$ a bit I strongly urge you to go easy when testing that build

An AB fet will stop the double cycle on semi but won't do jack to stop PE on full auto

The last piston to shred on 11.1v was actually short stroked 2 teeth on a m115-m120 spring but at 45+ it didn't make the 2nd round on full auto

31.5 on 7.4v but smashed f*ck on 11.1v

 

maybe 14:1 gears, m110 spring and the shs blue 3 steel tooth is lovely n light @11.5gms, remove 1 tooth off piston/sector

 

up to you what you chuck in there but seriously test on 7.4v first and depending on results and how much you did your homework....

then decide if she might be ok to risk it on 11.1v with an aprox 50% higher rof

I don't think I want to mess with a micro switch at the moment, so that'll help a little in the scar factor. I may as well just get a new strong piston for durability. Also I'm strung between the performance and reinforced 13:1 ZCI gears, what do you think?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

std aeg hits say 13rps on 7.4v

 

Mosfet on its own does f*ck all if using stock small tamiya and stock wiring

(it is when the deans & rewired with thicker wire you get a 15% increase - the fet does nothing but stops contacts arcing)

The fet in fact is an additional device that will take a few nano or milliseconds to trigger....

 

anyway deans fet & rewire will get that 13rps to say 15rps on stock motor on stock gears

 

add in a neodym motor and that can add on anything from 10% on a slow torquey Big Dragon M140 (don't bother buying imho)

to a whopping 50% over stock motor

 

I've done this quite a few times recently to have a rough idea of what to expect

recent DSG FireHawk went from say 22 stock to 27 nearly on fet deans rewire but was higher due to going from 18:1 gear to 16:1

(just under 10% gear ratio increase - actually 8% coz 16:1 is worst set out there @ 17.28:1 not expected 16.35 like 12:1 (12.65:1 actual ratio)

from 27 it went to 41 with a BD m160 motor on 7.4v

 

Anyway back to std aeg - now at say 15rps coz rewired etc....

add in a neo motor - pi$$ poor slow 10% to whippy 50% and you looking at about 17.5 to say 22.5 rps on 7.4v

 

that output will be a decent improvement and won't double cycle at all or completely safe to avoid PE

 

if using the stock ferrite motor it may not stop so quickly as a neodym motor with stronger magnets

and "might" cycle twice if run at higher 11.1v reaching 22.5rps on ferrite with 11.1v lipo but I doubt it unless spring is worn or under m90

 

test each upgraded box on 7.4v first and then expect to see around a 50% increase on that figure when using the beefier 11.1v

so with neo at 17.5 to 22.5 you could see 26 to 34rps on 11.1v neo motor setup on stock gears

 

again the aprox 30rps figure should be very carefully considered as PE risk really increases at that point on stock boxes with full stroke pistons

 

These are simply cautionary figures and warnings - as each box/build can be a bit different to my findings/examplesbut being

I have smashed a few boxes up by pushing them too much I feel I need to just mention the risks of going nutz

 

20rps once fetted deans etc... and decent neo motor like shs torque or BD M160

when you change gears depending on what you use will increase further but the really higher speed gears will make the motor work harder of course so it needs to be up to it and not a weaker speed motor or it will run warm on doing extra work

 

14:1 could be to me a nice easy balance to increase ratio speeds and push up rof say 25% aprox

without too many other PE or double cycle risks etc.....

 

Bear in mind the faster you gun fires the increase in wear will likely arise

and I firmly think a rof of 25 is nice figure or limit to hit without making more work when upgrading

eg: shortstroking and higher springs

 

There is a great additional thread full of wisdom but remember to not fully take it as 101% gospel

as we in uk have much lower limits than the yanks over the pond with their higher fps limits

so though they say this n that will be fine and use a m120 full stroke - that will put us well over limits @ 393.6fps

 

and m100/105 is what our std aeg springs are or we go up & shortstroke a tooth or two

(each tooth removed will reduce fps by aprox 6% of initial fps (or multiply 393.6 fps by 0.94)

 

eg: 394 x 0.94 = 370, 370 x 0.94 = 347.8 if removing 2 teeth of rear of piston & START of sector gear

 

anyway soz doing Open University maths bollox - the link.....

 

http://www.airsoftsociety.com/forums/f10/legacys-guide-building-high-speed-aeg-87504/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with duck you only want to run a 7.4v lipo. If you really want to use an 11.1 thats your call but that takes a lot more work to get running right.

All Ics I have used have averaged about 19 rps with the 3000 motor and rest stock on a 7.4. You dont need the 11.1 for what you want its overkill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what i gather the ICS Turbo 3000 has all the torque you'll need if you're not upgrading the spring. Depending on where you got it from you might even not have the 3000 in there, but a 2000 instead, regardless of what it says on the box.

 

Ones made by ICS for the spain/euro market have the 3000 and come with a harder spring (which the retailers have to downgrade).

 

Ones made directly for the UK (depends if the retailer has good enough relationship with ICS to get them) come with the 2000 motor instead, as supposedly the 3000 was too much torque when using a lesser spring and caused issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The shs gen 4 gear sets are bloody gorgeous

The bevel has plenty of tooth width when shimming to spur gear

so plenty of room to shim bevel high and spur low etc.....

runs smooth too - a very nice cost effective set of gears

 

I don't think you can shorten the trigger pull too much

even with a speed trigger, coz the switch has to go far enough to engage contacts and

be in correct place for cut off to yank the switch upwards to shoot back on semi and the

trigger itself has to come back far enough to relatch onto switch again.....

 

what you could consider is to trim the trigger's spring a little to make the trigger pull lighter

not where spring enters the trigger but the other end resting against gearbox shell to tension

 

however you really need to trim that spring only a little at a time and go easy or you balls it up

and will need a new trigger spring if cut too short to operate properly

not quite the same but trigger will activate a tiny smidge quicker due to the lighter trigger spring

(this is on a std M4 v2 gearbox - not done this on a v3 box btw)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So I think I have a wee shopping list of basic parts to make the gun wind up a bit quicker and help it last longer. Let me know what you all think.

 

ZCI reinforced 13:1 gears http://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/gears/zci-gear-set-13-1

ZCI reinforced piston w/ 14 teeth steel http://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/pistons/zci-piston-14-teeth-reinforced

ZCI nylon piston head (small upgrade from stock one nothing fancy) http://www.ak2m4.co.uk/internal-parts/pistons-heads/zci-piston-head-nylon

Gate PicoSSR3, small, cheap and easy to solder with no fancy things I don't need http://www.fire-support.co.uk/product/gate-electronics-mosfet-switch-picossr3

SHS High torque motor http://www.amazon.co.uk/SHS-TORQUE-MOTOR-AIRSOFT-GEARBOX/dp/B00DPIVUG2

Deans (dumbass question but are these real or "fakes" as I've heard fakes exist?) http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__11961__Nylon_T_Connectors_10_Pairs_20pc_.html

And as big a LiPo as I can fit in a crane stock (7.4v)

:)

 

As I said, only the basic stuff. Keeps the cost down and gives me what I want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×