UKARA/VCRA question

[Saber6-1]

So, I know if you want to buy a RIF, you need to follow the UKARA guidelines and what not, or suffer the indignity of a rainbow bright gun. Now my question refers to private party sales. When one player sells to another, how do they verify UKARA? I am not looking to sell or buy, but rather the question just popped in my head. Call it random curiosity.

[team flex]

well you can check on the player database, or get a retailer to check for you (much safer because player database isn't updated too much)

[YingKid]

There's a ukara website where anyone can check a potential buyer's ukara status. Obviously, one can sell without checking and no one will know but if the buyer does something irresponsible, then I'm sure the police will be all over the seller as well.

[team flex]

There's a ukara website where anyone can check a potential buyer's ukara status. Obviously, one can sell without checking and no one will know but if the buyer does something irresponsible, then I'm sure the police will be all over the seller as well.

yep, its the sellers fault, not the buyer. The seller is in risk there. But also, it is noted that a defence is needed for a RIF, not necessarily UKARA.

 

I will hand it over to someone who knows a lot about it on this forum...

[DX115FALCON]

I think that there is a thread exactly the same as this in the "UK LAW" section on these Forums. Not 100% sure though ,but its always worth checking

[jcheeseright]

The law does not differentiate between private and retail sales - selling a realistic imitation firearm is illegal.

 

The law offers a defence against prosecution for the sale of a RIF providing that the seller can prove it was sold to someone for the purposes of airsoft skirmishing. UKARA registration is pretty much air-tight when it comes to proving this, so it's the preferred method for many players and retailers.

[Saber6-1]

Thanks for the responses guys. Trying to understand UKARA and the VCRA can be tough. As I said, it was just plain old curiosity. The scheme just seems so alien to me. I honestly think buying a RIF in the UK is harder than buying a real gun back in the States.

[team flex]

Tbh it probably is. And for someone who doesn't skirmish it is easier to get a shotgun license I reckon. My dad only had to be checked, fill out for a and show some I'd and talk to a policeman and he can get shotguns whereas if someone can't get to airsoft games y have little hope. The law makes a lot of sense not!

[Ian_Gere]

You go here to check that a player is registered.

 

However, as has been noted, a UKARA registration is not the only means of proving that the defence applies to a sale to a particular person - a photo of them airsofting for eg is perfect. Do note that although the VCRA is the law and therefore, if something really egregious did happen and there was no other way to prosecute those involved, no doubt the Crown Prosecution Service would attempt to proceed with such a case, however you should also be made aware that ACPO, the Association of Chief Police Officers, have stated that the law is unenforcible and that the police will not attempt to enforce it where it is simply trade law - some police 'services'/forces have attempted to push enforcement onto local government officials, Trading Standards Officers, however they have said no fucking way... and you can see why - it is the simplest thing in the world to lie your way out of - in fact, if you read the actual wording of the law, you'll see that you'd have to be trying to get prosecuted to lose the case

 

More importantly however, anything which you may do with an RIF which would bring you to the attention of the police was and remains an offence under the Firearms Act, which is a lot simpler and criminalises only verifiable, evidence defined, behaviour. The other Act which they would turn to if they felt that they did not quite have enough on you under the Firearms Act is the Public Order Act, which basically makes anything which the police determine is annoying an offence. Prima facie it may seem difficult to imagine how selling something to somebody with which they then went off to do something stupid could be a public order offence, but trust me on this, the way the both POA's are written, if they wanted you in jail, they could find something...

 

The upshot then is that, as a vendor, what you need to determine about the buyer is not so much whether they are an airsofter as whether they are a dick. And over 18...

[Saber6-1]

All I can say is...wow.

 

Thanks for the information, I am making sense of this finally.

[Chock]

Trying to understand UKARA and the VCRA can be tough.

 

A lot of laws in the UK are born out of knee-jerk reactions to things which get hyped up in the tabloid papers. This is like a red rag to a bull for many Z-List backbencher MPs in the UK's Parliament, most of whom are trying to make a name for themselves. The favoured MP's method for that, is to 'crusade' a certain flavour of the month issue, since it means they'll get their face on current affairs TV programmes. Sadly, there are a lot of politicians in this country for whom the notion of being an Member of Parliament, is less about having a burning wish to spread their heartfelt political beliefs, or desire to serve their fellow countrymen, and more about setting themselves up for a career path which consists of serving three terms of office as an MP (which in itself is not a bad wage), then the hope that they'll get some sort of gong or honour sponsored by their party (Knighthood, CBE, MBE, OBE, peerage or some such letters after their name). Such an accolade means they can then get a non-executive directorship with a big corporation, then sit back doing feck all for the rest of their life, whilst on a pretty good director's salary. Most big UK companies like the idea of having someone on the board who has 'Sir' or 'Lord' as part of their name, since this looks good on their company stationery.

 

The fallout from all that self-serving bollocks which a good many UK politicians indulge in, is that we often end up with dumb ass laws sponsored by someone who rarely knows much about the subject at hand, or doesn't think a great deal about consequences and effects of what they are attempting to force through as a law. The VCR Act is a case in point for this, most of it stems from the press baying for legislation changes after some loony tune has gone postal in some town centre, whereupon some MP sees this as his or her gravy train pulling into the station. It matters not one jot that when somebody does flip out like that and kill a bunch of people, the press are hardly concerned with the real issue - since that requires some thought - which is that anyone who does flip out like that, should clearly have been dealt with by getting assistance for their mental issues long before they ever got hold of a weapon, certainly in any country which really is concerned for the welfare of its citizens, and such should certainly be championed by newspapers if they really were the moral compasses they pretend to be. For if not, such potential killers could just as easily flip out and attack people with a hammer, screwdriver, kitchen knife, half a brick etc, but even if they do not do that, such mentally ill people have clearly fallen through the safety net of society, which should be offering assistance to people with mental health issues which might cause such destructive behaviour.

 

It should be obvious to anyone who applies some intelligent thought to the matter for more than a nanosecond, that since the vast majority of people can be trusted to not go out and massacre their fellow man if they have access to a rifle or pistol, then the solution to much gun crime is therefore to be found in seeking to help those who have problems which result in them not being capable of such trust. For if not, then we'd better ban kitchen knives, half bricks, screwdrivers, hammers etc.

[Saber6-1]

With the rash of beheadings going on, are all swords/axes/shovel/rakes/hoes/butter knives/potato peelers/sporks/etc going to be painted two tone? Will I have to do three home improvement projects in two months before I can buy a lawn mower?

 

Sorry, sarcasm

[Cuban-Trog]

Brilliant!!

[Ian_Gere]

Actually swords with curved blades are subject to restriction, i think banned from sale, but i'm not sure how that affects those already owned by people - i haven't been bothered to find out b/c my sword has a straight blade...

 

Why do i have it? Because an AEG is no use if i need to fuck somebody up in a hurry. If I was in a frame of mind to shoot up a town centre though, I'd spray a gun orange so I could produce it and walk to wherever i wanted to begin my madness without freaking people out. The VCRA... protecting us

 

The danger when we are talking about this situation however is to conflate our toys with firearms. So they look like guns. So the average person could not tell many AEG's from real steel no matter what colour they were, even if you put one in their hands. So a nutter could threaten somebody with an RIF and that person would be in fear of their life. Whoop-de-doo! People who have been shot would no doubt happily explain that being shot is a lot worse than fearing being shot.

 

The real issue however is, as Chock alluded to, that the whole thing is a non-issue cooked up by a perfect storm of self serving politicians, media who know that peddling fear sells papers, and do gooders who, given half a chance, would attempt to legislate away absolutely any potential danger, even gravity if they could only work out how. There never was a crime wave involving RIF's and although there are some stats which claim that gun crime has gone down since the introduction of the VCRA, in fact the number of offences is miniscule compared to, for eg., good old British punch ups in the street. But the stats do not distinguish between arrests in which a firearm or RIF was an integral part of the offence and arrests where it was subsequently discovered that the perp was carrying a firearm, RIF, or IF, so in actual fact we have no idea what effect, if any, the VCRA has had on actual crime.

 

Whoa though... surely if someone was arrested for something and happened to be carrying an RIF, it's reasonable to assume that they were up to no good with it, so the inclusion of that arrest in gun crime stats is fair enough, eh? Well, I was once arrested because the person with whom I was walking had an outstanding warrant for something poxy. I was searched and it was discovered that about my person I was concealing a rubber glove, a file, a swiss army knife, aaaaaaand... a water pistol. Clearly I was not only "Going Equipped" to commit burglary, but also planning to threaten people with my WW1 Webley stylee black water pistol with its bright orange tip and the police were quite correct to refer to it as "The Firearm" throughout the ensuing interviews, despite the fact that neither I nor my solicitor could stop ourselves giggling everytime they said it (it was the pomposity - you had to be there).

 

Now, it is true that I have not always been the law abiding citizen I am now, but trust me on this, if I had been going equipped to burgle, I would have had 2 gloves and equipment which would have been good for breaking into premises, not for fixing a bike pedal and, having found a water pistol in the street, I would not have picked it up to give to the child of a friend but would have left it there and got on with the fucking burglary. Nevertheless, this is one incident which made up the pre-VCRA firearms arrests stats...

[Mack]

Actually swords with curved blades are subject to restriction, i think banned from sale, but i'm not sure how that affects those already owned by people - i haven't been bothered to find out b/c my sword has a straight blade...

 

 

Can still get Curved blades mate as I had to get one myself for TSKSR, although it is a bit like airsoft in that there are exemtions

 

Members of historical re-enactment groups which hold a Public Liability Certificate.

•Members of a Martial Arts club which hold a Public Liability Certificate.

•Use for authorized Theatrical / film use.

•All Swords over 100 years old.

•Samurai Swords made before 1954.

•Samurai Swords made in Japan at any time using the traditional forging technique.

[Saber6-1]

Its really easy to take for granted the certain freedoms we have in America. For example, I can attend a gun show, and that day leave with swords/knives and a long gun that day, and 7 days later, pick up a pistol. The VCRA does seem to be a knee jerk reaction. Lets go ahead and label the many for the actions of a few, yet conversely spout tolerance and say not to judge the many for the actions of a few (Muslims). Government....

[Baz JJ]

The US and UK are very different countries. A common language sometimes, but 300 years or so of parallel but independent change and development have made them so.

 

I spent a lot of time in the US in a lot of different coastal states and I came to the conclusion that I only got into trouble when I thought I was in the UK. The culture is very different in the US compared to Europe, on a lot of levels.

 

We are seduced by American TV programmes from birth here, but I found in quite a few states, many people didn't fully understand what I was talking about. The words were shared but the meanings not.

 

What is moral turpitude anyway ?

 

In terms of gun laws, As a brit, find the casual attitude to firearms quite disturbing in certain states.

 

We are a bit over liberal here and there is a lot wrong with the UK. However, we still have more queuing to get in than out.

 

The VCRA is a car designed by a bunch of different designers in different rooms who weren't on speaking terms on the day.

Try living in Oz or a few other European countries. At least we have Airsoft and a reasonable energy limit.

[Saber6-1]

Don't get me wrong, I happen to love living here, and I am truly thankful to be a guest in this great country. I have had the luxury of living all over the world, and England is close to the top of places. I am of the mindset to take part in my community, hence why my wife and I chose to live off base. We can experience what life is like for the British people, and not just be sequestered and sheltered by the base.

 

Moral turpitude- Thats a persons moral and ethical standing. Its a term used by law enforcement to gauge a persons values, morals, and ethics, and whether or not they would make a good cop.

 

We have some very good friends who we hang out with, and whats funny is one couple is from South Africa. It seems SA and the US use very much the same lingo, and after quite a few libations we begin to discuss the linguistic differences between SA, US, and UK. Its quite amusing.

[Ian_Gere]

There are a lot of people in this country whom, if they were armed, would worry me sufficiently to leave. People can argue all they like about people killing people, but the fact remains that it's a damn sight easier to do with a firearm and, whereas you could lose your shit and wade into somebody with anything, including your bare hands, and kill them, the fact that you have to step right up and do the ugly deeds at close range means that you may well not go the whole hog, may simply injure that person rather than kill them. But a moment's rage, or stupidity, with a gun in your hand...

 

I also don't trust UK police to be habitually armed and, if the populace had easy access to firearms, there would be no stopping that from happening. It's sad because, in principle, I agree with the idea that the populace should have the means to overthrow the government easily to hand. But then again, when you look at 20th century and even recent US history, I'm not sure that the argument does actually hold any water... I mean where were the Minutemen when JFK was assassinated (as just one mahoosive example)? Oh right... applauding.

 

In this day and age it's the new media, t'internet, to which we must jealously maintain access.

 

But again, this is to miss the point totally. AEG's are toys. It is difficult to do, but if we are ever going to see the VCRA quietly superceded by legislation which basically repeals it (without appearing to, since the establishment never actually says "we fucked that one good stylee - oops"), we need to find language with which to discuss the issues without reference to firearms at all...

[team flex]

You know lanner tactical sell bolt pull or what we ar15s designed for this country. If you must have a gun that's shoots 5.56 you can get them (pretty sure everyone knows this)

 

However the good thing I think k is the background vetting needed and all the tests to make sure your not a hooligan, doesn't mean you can't just walk into a shop and buy an ak-47

 

I don't know that much about this topic. However did pick a bit up reading and with dad getting his shotgun license etc it seems obvious people are very careful about giving guns out

[two_zero]

So, I know if you want to buy a RIF, you need to follow the UKARA guidelines and what not, or suffer the indignity of a rainbow bright gun. Now my question refers to private party sales. When one player sells to another, how do they verify UKARA? I am not looking to sell or buy, but rather the question just popped in my head. Call it random curiosity.

you'd be wise to check that the person you're selling to have a valid defence.... prison sucks, or so I've heard.

[Ian_Gere]

you'd be wise to check that the person you're selling to have a valid defence.... prison sucks, or so I've heard.

It is not the buyer who needs the defence, the defence applies to the seller so long as the gun will be used for airsoft. Yeah, but that is not how it works in practice, right? Nonetheless, that is the law. So, for instance, when UK retailers say that they can only sell 2 tone guns to the parents of under 18's who are airsofters, they are just playing along with the money making scheme which UKARA actually is. In fact a photo of that U18 airsofting would be proof that the gun was intended to be used for airsoft, just not by the purchaser - but the VCRA doesn't say anything about who actually pays for it, only that the RIF must be used for one of the specified exempt purposes, to which airsoft was added under the provision which allows the Secretary of State to add to them.

[cavninja]

I think Ian's hit the nail on the head, we don't want any for of legislation for airsofting that is going to lump it in with gun control. Currently, as long as we all do what we love, airsofting at recognised sites,and not running around in public places with RIFs, then I'm pretty sure ACPO and the CPS will let sleeping dogs lay. But it took Dunblane to ban hand guns. I'm not saying that someone will go on a killing spree with an airsoft gun, but if there is a specific high profile incident or series on indcidents, involving airsoft guns, then I'm sure the do-gooders would feel compelled to act.

Our current system may not be perfect, it may be full of holes, it may be easy to circumvent, but it works for us, so let enjoy airsofting! If you're really in to it, then three games over two months is bugger all and you can soon be registered on the UKARA database, if that's what they want, that's what they'll get!

 

Smile and wave boys, smile and wave!

[two_zero]

It is not the buyer who needs the defence, the defence applies to the seller so long as the gun will be used for airsoft. Yeah, but that is not how it works in practice, right? Nonetheless, that is the law. So, for instance, when UK retailers say that they can only sell 2 tone guns to the parents of under 18's who are airsofters, they are just playing along with the money making scheme which UKARA actually is. In fact a photo of that U18 airsofting would be proof that the gun was intended to be used for airsoft, just not by the purchaser - but the VCRA doesn't say anything about who actually pays for it, only that the RIF must be used for one of the specified exempt purposes, to which airsoft was added under the provision which allows the Secretary of State to add to them.

didn't mention buyer or UKARA I've taken "alternative" proof of defence when selling^^ but I always do check - not worth breaking the law for a few quid

[Albiscuit]

The law is soo vague on lots of things. I used to work in a hardware store and could not sell knives, bladed items or axes to under 18s, however I could sell an under 18 year old a Balaclava, sledgehammer, pliers and a crowbar without blinking.

I had saws, hole punches, hammers, picks all of which were waaay more dangerous than a Stanley knife and all available to a 16 year old on a apprenticeship or a 17 year old thug..