Supporters NickM Posted January 27, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 27, 2014 There is no 'type' afternoons are worse for non hit taking in my experience, Yeah afternoons tend to be worse in my experience, which leads me to my additional observation. If the person is not taking hits in the morning something should be done then as the likely hood is it will only get worse later. Especially when people start getting pissed off with them and get aggressive or resort to similar behaviour themselves. This is where the system of tooled up marshals shooting players point blank or near as and giving warnings for people who don't call it. Marshals need to have a simple policy to follow, something like if you cheat and are caught twice in a day you are not welcome and you have to leave there and then. Doesn't matter if you are in the group of 20 rentals that came down by coach or the member of the local team you go, if the site let you back at a later date it is totally up to them. And I get your point about type, there isn't really one which is why in my post there are 3 possible types including myself as I know there are occasions when I get things wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky vimto Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Yeah afternoons tend to be worse in my experience, which leads me to my additional observation. If the person is not taking hits in the morning something should be done then as the likely hood is it will only get worse later. Especially when people start getting pissed off with them and get aggressive or resort to similar behaviour themselves. This is where the system of tooled up marshals shooting players point blank or near as and giving warnings for people who don't call it. Marshals need to have a simple policy to follow, something like if you cheat and are caught twice in a day you are not welcome and you have to leave there and then. Doesn't matter if you are in the group of 20 rentals that came down by coach or the member of the local team you go, if the site let you back at a later date it is totally up to them. And I get your point about type, there isn't really one which is why in my post there are 3 possible types including myself as I know there are occasions when I get things wrong. I've heard ucap woodlands do this. If there is any suspicion of someone cheating a Marshall would shoot them during the game to see if they call it. I suppose in one way it's a good way to find out but I'd be a bit pissed if it happened to me because someone thought I was cheating and I weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters NickM Posted January 27, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 27, 2014 Ah the site I know of, if you call it they say ignore it and carry on, no regen etc, if you don't call it you get a warning second time you get a time out, third time you are outta there. One site has all noobs, rentals etc after the safety brief stand in two lines like a firing squad and shoot each other, only a couple of shots, 2 reasons, so they know what it feels like to be shot, and so that they know what it sounds like on their kit. I think its a pretty good idea. If it was up to me people, repeatedly overkilling would be invited to run the gauntlet or leave. If you do it you'd be unlikely to have a heavy trigger finger in future. Maybe I'm harsh but overkill and not taking hits are my pet peeves in airsoft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky vimto Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Ah the site I know of, if you call it they say ignore it and carry on, no regen etc, if you don't call it you get a warning second time you get a time out, third time you are outta there. One site has all noobs, rentals etc after the safety brief stand in two lines like a firing squad and shoot each other, only a couple of shots, 2 reasons, so they know what it feels like to be shot, and so that they know what it sounds like on their kit. I think its a pretty good idea. If it was up to me people, repeatedly overkilling would be invited to run the gauntlet or leave. If you do it you'd be unlikely to have a heavy trigger finger in future. Maybe I'm harsh but overkill and not taking hits are my pet peeves in airsoft. That is overkill! I've never been to the site I was talking about, a friend has and he said he's seen it happen to people before. Maybe they do the same and let the player carry, I guess it is the most sensible thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RR01 Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I had an experience yesterday at The Tunnels when I thought someone wasn't taking hits from me at about 20 yards, especially as I'd been taking out people at twice that range easily just before. I was just about to get upset at him when I realised my MP5 midcap was emply and, because I don't use it that often and wasn't quite clued up to the sound it makes when dry firing, I'd been shooting air at him. Needless to say, in the time it took me to change mags he had adjusted his aim and took me out instead. I also had a couple of occasions when I felt a soft nick on my coat, soft enough that it couldn't have been a direct shot and was probably a round bouncing off the floor or wall at the end of its travel. Those I won't call hit on, but I did on a couple of occasions when I was hit from behind from what were probably ricochets, although as I had team mates behind me I couldn't be sure one of them had hit me in error, so took the hit. Later I took out my M16, which has greater range than my MP5 and was getting shots in on people at about 40 yards that didn't seem to have any effect. I know the BBs were hitting the wall behind them, as a mate was in front of me and could hear them striking (I couldn't), but as I hadn't used that rifle since October I also couldn't be sure that the sights were still in line with the point of impact, so I could have been missing my target (NB: brown bio BBs are really hard to track in a dimly lit tunnel, even down the beam of a bright torch). So even though you think you might be hitting someone, unless you are 100% sure that your sights are spot on, or you can actually see the BBs hitting your target, you may not actually be getting the hits you think you are. Time to take the M16 down to the rifle range and get it lined up again, either that or change back to white plastic BBs that you can see all the way to the target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheeky vimto Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Later I took out my M16, which has greater range than my MP5 and was getting shots in on people at about 40 yards that didn't seem to have any effect. I know the BBs were hitting the wall behind them, as a mate was in front of me and could hear them striking (I couldn't), but as I hadn't used that rifle since October I also couldn't be sure that the sights were still in line with the point of impact, so I could have been missing my target (NB: brown bio BBs are really hard to track in a dimly lit tunnel, even down the beam of a bright torch). So even though you think you might be hitting someone, unless you are 100% sure that your sights are spot on, or you can actually see the BBs hitting your target, you may not actually be getting the hits you think you are. Time to take the M16 down to the rifle range and get it lined up again, either that or change back to white plastic BBs that you can see all the way to the target. I bought black BBs once thinking they'd be better at my dark CQB site as people would see them coming. Worse mistake ever as I couldn't see where I shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PT247 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 a tad off topic, what are your views on folk who insist that they know the rules far better than anyone else? Had a chap tell my mate off for using dead players as cover (were using the medic rule) and tbh it was somit I found a bit iffy but thought was at the end of the day a good tactical move. He didn't do it again after as we were visiting the site so didn't want to annoy the locals. I also had a chap repeatedly tell me not to fire from the hip, I was in no way blind firing, I got shot out and asked clarification from the marshals as again I didn't want to annoy the locals. The marshal said it was fine.... strangely tho the chap that whined about it decided to shoot me in the nose while my hand was in the air.I really enjoyed my game there and was pleased to see the marshals supervising to check I was taking my hits (am guessing that the peeps hunting me were getting frustrated with my "Marco..... Polo" ninja moves ;-) lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Esoterick Posted January 28, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 28, 2014 I don't think you should use another player as a human shield lol, unless you would like to get rinsed with BBs while someone hides behind you. However it isn't really for players to be enforcing the site rules(or making up their own) - I wouldn't mind someone pointing out if I was doing something against the rules, but really if they have a problem with a player they should be speaking to a Marshal. Ordering other players about is likely to just lead to drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted January 28, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 28, 2014 I've stopped wearing rigs which cover my chest because I know that I don't feel hits through them, so I have to rely on the sound... yeah, well, not when I'm firing myself or have a team mate close by, or I'm running across crunchy terrain, or there's terrain being rattled around me by misses, because my hearing has a pronounced drop off in the higher frequencies and a bit of tinnitus in the upper mids. It's not like it's an absolute, like if I don't feel it I don't take it, because obviously I hear some, but I've had enough people saying "Oi!" to take note. There was another time when somebody pulled me on the way back to the safe zone to say he had been hitting me in the leg, consistently, during the last game. I was lying prone behind some barrels and snap shooting with my off hand and, combined with a noob rental on my right crouching, putting the complete damper on any advance up that flank - he said my leg was sticking out, which I find credible. Weeeeell, I felt nothing, but I did have a knee pad on and a drop leg dump pouch, so it seemed possible - but I was prone, so the back of my leg should have been shot if he'd been hitting me as much as he claimed and it's pretty sensitive, plus there were marshals close by... what can you say except "Didn't feel it. I'm sorry you are annoyed. If it happens again please call a marshal because I don't want to be cheating accidentally." Thing is, in the last example the bloke was obviously peeved, but he was still polite about it. I've done the same kind of thing myself as well, when I've been sure I've hit somebody and it actually mattered to the outcome of the skirmish, but they didn't take it. It's not always possible to get a marshal to oversee somebody whom you think isn't taking their hits, because the situation develops and changes too fast. At times like those I just remind myself that I'm doing it for a laugh primarily, the majority of people are like me in that if they are not taking hits it's because they do not know they're being hit, all that's needed is a polite word. There is also adrenalin to consider. I'm pretty sure that I have failed to notice hits to even relatively sensitive areas like the inside of my biceps, because I've got home and found round hit bruises but don't remember the hit (although with the state of my memory it probably is possible that i took a hit and just forgot the whole regen etc ). I can't be alone in this though. If we didn't get excited at some points during a skirmish day, there'd be little point IMO! So I spose that what I'm saying is that I'm very prepared to accept that most people are well meaning but that they sometimes don't take hits, so I'm not in favour of any draconian procedures for enforcing the rules. I think every case needs to be examined on its own merits. There obviously are some people who refuse to take hits they clearly have felt, but my experience of life leads me to believe that people respond far better to feeling mildly embarrassed when they do wrong and being praised when they do right than they do to being told to get lost for rule infringements. That said, the people whom we all have met, with their loadout and guns costing not far off the price of a reasonable car, who have been at it for long enough that they ought to know better, but look down their nose at us mere mortal skirmishers and refuse to believe that we could have hit them, the Absolute Cocks (it's a technical term) and/or members of Special Farces, really do need to be pulled up short by marshal intervention and sin binned for infractions, because they literally have too much invested in their self image to change without an external imperative. But as for a type, Ed, JCheeseright, and Sam, to mention just 3 off the top of my head, can and do field some fair wallop of money's worth of kit, and though I can only vouch for Ed and James in person, I'm sure Sam is an honourable player, so it totally doesn't mean that we ought to expect good kit to go with a bad attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Esoterick Posted January 28, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 28, 2014 I do feel a bit sorry for people that spend so much money on kit and still feel the need to cheat. I was at a game last year where my mate was pinging shots off this chap, he looks down at where he is being hit and then up at my mate and shakes his head, then continues playing. At least you could argue that rentals might not know any better, although I would disagree. Like you say Ian best bet is just to laugh it off, which isn't always easy - I guess if people are so inadequate they feel the need to cheat that is their choice. I'm sure I am not the only one that takes hits if there is a doubt whether it was a ricochet, but i'd rather that than look back on a firefight and think I might have not taken a legitimate hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted January 28, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 28, 2014 I go with balance of probabilities for ricochets - if it's 1, 2, 3 maybe, and i hear it/them hit something 1st, I don't care what it looks like, I'm not taking it. More than that and it gets difficult to tell if all of the hits were ricochets, maybe only 1 out of 5 was a direct shot but that's possible, so then it comes down to where I was hit in comparison to angles from which I could be hit - if it's still possible, I'll take it. Then there's being hosed behind cover - if I can hear and see BB's bouncing off the cover and feel loads of hits getting through gaps, I'll just take it even if I'm sceptical, because chances are if 1 hasn't actually got me direct yet, it soon will. Oh yeah, and another way to cut down on ambiguity is the 'no mercy' approach. I hear people complaining about overkill. Personally I don't mind being hosed, unless I've shouted hit and stuck my hand up - that really gets up my arse and I can't help swearing about it. But simply being fired at full auto, when the shooter pretty much knows that the first shot will hit, but even if it doesn't the 2nd is a guarantee because they'll have been able to adjust aim, no, I don't care - it's an adventure sport - the risk is that you will get hurt. If there was no risk of getting hurt, there'd be far less, in some games no, reason to get excited. Same with headshots. We all get the same briefing ,"We recommend that you wear full face protection.", and if some people don't want to take that on board it's tough titties when they get a string of bleeders across their chops. But one thing that 'no mercy' does do is makes as sure as possible that we each know when we have been hit. It's not like anyone who is wearing their safety equipment properly is going to get actually injured and surely the marshal's main job is to make sure that any player whose eye protection appears inadequate, whether by construction or by how it is being used, gets back to the safe zone ASAP under cover of a shouted CEASE FIRE! I dunno, maybe there needs to be a split in our sport/hobby... keep the name airsoft for all the single shot only inside buildings, no deliberate headshots, 328 +/- 5% FPS, no DMR, 25+m MED for 500FPS BASR's, no CO2 guns, underarm bowling of BFG's only, etc. type of rules and... adopt the Russian name "Strikeball" for no mercy, full auto 368 FPS hard limit, full auto designated support weapons (with a minimum weight & maximum ROF) 400FPS hard limit with 10m MED, semi-auto only (inc pistols) 425 FPS hard limit no MED, BASR's 500FPS MED 15m, Bolt Action designated anti-materiel rifles (with a minimum weight) 600FPS 25m MED, BFG's can be thrown overarm but only hard enough to clear obstacles upto 2.5m high, or to get them in through open windows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters jcheeseright Posted January 28, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 28, 2014 I'm with Ian on this, I adopt the 'hose' approach unless I have them absolutely bang to rights and then I'll normally just put one into somewhere soft (inner thigh is a favourite) so they KNOW it's happened. Like he said, it's an adventure sport and you're not actually going to pick up an injury from me shooting a 5 round burst at you! People who blatantly just ignore hits annoy me but what can you do? Tell a marshall and move on, it's just a game after all and there's no prizes for winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remus Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 at our site our marshals(well one in particular) pays attention, listening to take your hits shouts etc, and watches them. if he then believes they aint taking their hits then he shoots them to be sure. then he goes over and tells them off. repeat offenders are kicked off. to the point one of my mates i was playing against was hiding behind a tire wall. i shot him in the head as he looked ove, says aw, ducks down stands up shoots, i shoot him in the head again. this happened a few times and hed been told off in between and so got kicked, just from the rest of the day. he still comes but is more reliable that way, just his game tactics suck( lying in the open with his lmg shooting at a high well defended building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Da Mack Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 For me, I'll usually do the short burst/semi auto, but if they don't respond, it's full auto berserker to the face. I do think that the people who are worse for taking hits are the ones who think they are better than everyone else because "merhhh, no one can kill me! I'm better than them, merhh" However, under the heat of the moment, I'm sure we all haven't taken our hits at some point due to the adrenaline rush or because you're too busy focusing on something else. I know I've been guilty of it at least once or twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Airsoft-Ed Posted January 28, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 28, 2014 The biggest issue with people not taking hits, isn't so much the fact that they aren't taking their hits, it's the knock on effect that they cause. If I see someone cheating I'll generally let them off, it's just one person, they'll realise they were a dick sooner or later, and if they don't I'll just count on it catching up to them sooner or later, no point letting it bother me unless they're causing the team to lose or something - A marshal gets the nod and I'll trust them to sort it out. But, if there's one player who gets shot to shit and just carries on playing, then the person shooting the shit out of them is going to get annoyed, that much is a given. If it keeps happening, then it gets to the point where people start to think, "Well, if he's not going to take my hits, I'm not going to take his" and then you end up with one person on either team moaning about cheaters. This then gets to people's heads and every time they doubt someone, they will just think they're cheating, and before you know it you get a team of cheaters against a team of cheaters and it becomes an unmarshallably (<< I'm amazed there isn't a red squiggle under that btw, good job Google Chrome) wank day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornleverpuller Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I just don't worry about non hit takers, if I am close enough that I 100% sure that I hit them I am also close enough to pepper them with fully auto until they decide it hurts enough to declare they have been hit. I do get satisfaction from having a person that I have hit a couple of times and not called it have a little strop after getting a decent burst from close range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawnah Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I've never noticed a knock-on effect, but I've noticed that non-hit takers are usually those on the losing team or if they've been dying often. I get it, they're probably frustrated and are sick of walking back to the respawn. I'll usually just let them off because most of the time I can't really be 100% certain I hit them anyway. That said it is still a little irritating when you KNOW you hit them and they just duck back into cover. Never gotten to the point where I was pissed off enough to report anyone to a marshall though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose87 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 i have only reported two. one at my local abd one at cool under fire. CuF one was the owner of a site in essex and was the worst cheat and most dangerous player i have ever come across. full auto blind firing inside a fort. non hit taking. screaming at people he thinks hes hit. using more lives then they were given. hot gun. the staff asked him not to come back apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Esoterick Posted January 28, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 28, 2014 I've only reported one person and in that case my suspicions were confirmed by the sleeve of his overall flapping rigorously in line with where my BBs were hitting, that was about the 4th time i'd heavily full autoed him and 4 of my team were standing next to me shouting at him to take his hits. Suffice to say they were queued up behind me when I had a word with the marshal after the game, lo and behold the guy had his hand in the air a lot for the remainder of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Death Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 The thing I don't understand about cheaters is WHY DO IT! You are denying yourself of fun!!! I remember many years ago when I was a boy playing the original doom game on an ancient PC. A friend of mine told me a 'cheat' to enable godMode where I was invincible as I could not be hit. This was fun for all of about 15 seconds where I thought the game went from being excellent to utter wank. Surely it feels this way for cheaters at a skirmish! If you haven't earned your kills, then why do you have such a big fat 'special needs' grin on your face. Maybe I'm being a bit generalistic but whenever I've come up against blatant cheaters they tend to be a bit well 'special'. My last dealing with a 'special' (as I will now be referring to them lol) was with a guy who on the face of things should have known better. He was in his late 30s to early 40s and appeared to have been airsofting a long time. I had to explain to him why sticking a pistol 90 degrees round a corner was dangerous as he has no idea what he was shooting at. His response was "wear full face pro and stop being a hero with just goggles". I took him calmly to one side and showed him a slow motion demo of a pistol/rifle barrel accidentally hooking into a mask and removing the protection from ones face. Firing would result in point blank bbs direct into eyeballs, nostrils or the mouth with the shooter not even knowing he is doing this. He seemed to understand this but just shrugged and said it was still ok for him to do this despite the strong logic as to why not to do it. I have debates of this level with my 3 year old son and get a similar response but I don't expect this from a grown man. I just find these specials an absolute liability and danger to other players. I can just about tolerate cheaters but dangerous pricks need to get kicked before there's a big enough scare story to get the entire airsoft scene shut down or overly regulated to within an inch of its life!!! After moaning to the Marshalls about this prick a few times for different multiple of fences I eventually had a close encounter with him and moscarted him in the throat from about 10cm (the only exposed skin on his entire body) with a 120round grenade. He ran off almost in tears to which I shouted "shoulda worse throat pro". He avoided me for the rest of the day! I'm never usually that harsh but if pricks wanna cheat or endanger others then 'airsoft etticate' goes out the window! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Death Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Oh and final rant... I do think Marshalls on some sites (not all) need to do more to mediate and monitor. If the same person is being complained about by multiple persons (in different groups not all same team) then remove that person because they will have someone swing for them. No one wants to see a fight at a skirmish (I've seen a few) and these can be avoided by early intervention Rant over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Ian_Gere Posted January 29, 2014 Supporters Share Posted January 29, 2014 IMO the 'sin bin' approach is best: 5-10mins off the field depending on the offence. It's not a major pain as a sanction but it's got to be annoying and embarrassing too I would expect. But because it isn't such a bad thing, marshals would feel more able to use it. If marshals have to choose between pulling a person from that game completely for a first sanction then another massively important consideration has to be considered - who is the person and how influential is s/he within what size group of friends and how often do they come to the site... ie can i justify possibly losing X amount of business for the owner over incident Y? This may well be the mechanism that creates the infamous home team invulnerability... It's sad, and, as you say Black Death, I can't really get my head around it either (except where i have definitely shot someone and seen them flinch but they haven't taken it, then i have previously just refused to take hits from them, ignoring them entirely - but in hindsight this is not the way forward b/c it encourages others to refuse hits also), but get it or not, deliberate cheating goes on and maybe a sanction which marshals would feel able to hand out on no more evidence than a report and seeing what seemed like a transgression, but which the marshal was not right next to so they couldn't perhaps swear to what appeared to have gone on... You get me, people? Things can change very quickly in the field and if all a marshal can do is boot somebody back to the safe zone and after that off the site, maybe they wouldn't unless they could absolutely 100% swear to a breach of rules that was actually dangerous, rather than just annoying. I have to say that I'd bloody dislike it if I was given a sin binning by mistake, but I could accept it, in the same way i accept 50/50's when I know for a fact I not only shot first but that if it had been a real bullet, my opponent would not have been able to aim and fire with his/her last breath (Body-T shot)*, or pyro kills when I got myself round a corner with milliseconds to spare: for the sake of the game mechanics - it would not work as a sport if every marshal decision was subject to a debate, so I may well chunner under my breath and/or express my indignation to a team mate, but knowing that such events are the price of the game running well makes it rankle a lot less. The same would be true of a dubious/erroneous sin binning I'm sure... * This happens to me fairly often because, fat ill bastard though I may be, my reaction time is still very short, so when I've failed to evacuate a position to displace, in response to the opposition taking out my team mates close by or just overwhelming us with numbers and full-auto, because I couldn't be arsed, or was too fucked even if the spirit was willing, to move, I know my time is up - but I'm not going to just give up, I'm totally going to shoot it out with as many of 'em as I can before I get hit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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