Mmmmm Bullpups

[Maff-7777]

So I'm new to airsoft and am working towards my UKARA registration but I can't wait to get my first gun and have been looking around online as to which to get. One thing I do want to avoid is buying a cheap beginners gun that I will want to replace in a handful of months. I'd rather buy a decent gun that I can modify and add to, so it develops as I gain more experience.


Also I'm rather taken by bull pups. I'd imagine that their shorter length makes them suited to QCB, while their long barrel length means they can still be used outdoors. So I can just get the one gun, rather then buying one for QCB and one for outdoors.

There are three guns that have caught my eye and I was wondering if anyone has any experiecne with them or advice?

First is the AUG A3.
Pros; It looks cool and is bull pup. It has four rails so I can add stuff on straight away. It seems to take a pretty common form of magazines. It shoots around 320FPS (which seems to be a common UK site limit). It has that duel stage trigger semi/full auto feature. It's priced at a reasonable £200.
Cons; It's not that short for a bullpup. There seem to be two manufactures ASG and JG – and some reviews claim neither are very good. I'm uncertain in the internals are easy to upgrade/replace and its it's easy to adjust the FPS to go to and from outdoor to QCB play.

Second the APS Urban Assault Rifle.
Pros; It looks cool (reminds me of the Halo Assault Rifle). It has four rails so I can add stuff on straight away. It has a quick change spring. You can buy a user guide from amazon for it (handy for a new player like me). Takes M4 Mags. It's priced at a reasonable £200.
Cons; Seems really hard to find! Has a high FPS so I'd need to dial that down to use in the UK. I'm uncertain in the internals are easy to upgrade/replace and its it's easy to adjust the FPS to go to and from outdoor to QCB play. Because it's not based on a real gun would people frown at me if I got into mil-sim games?

Third the G&G F2000
Pros; G&G seems to be a very highly regarded manufacture. You can adjust/change the spring/FPS with a screwdriver. It has that duel stage trigger semi/full auto feature. You can buy a rail system to increase it to 4 rails (and it looks so cool when you do). I think it take M4 mags (not sure on that).
Cons; It's not cheap – £350 is think (and another £90 for the rail system). Hard to find. I've heard some UK sites down't allow guns that you can adjust the FPS on, incase you cheat and up the FPS after being tested. I'm uncertain in the internals are easy to upgrade/replace and its it's easy to adjust the FPS to go to and from outdoor to QCB play.

So does anyone have any advice?

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

Few things to clarify that you seem unaware of - The JG AUG is the same as the ASG one. ASG are simply a branding company, they own the licensing rights for a number of real steel weapon manufacturers, so they just buy existing guns, engrave them with real trade marks and then sell them on under their own name.

As for the magazines, they're a non-standard type. You have to buy them specific to the AUG - they're rather hard to find, especially mid-caps, so if you are thinking of ever attending any mil-sim games, you might struggle to get in, since they often don't allow high cap mags at mil-sim events.
That's not to say that mid caps aren't available, I just don't recall ever seeing any, so you might want to shop about before taking the plunge.

I think the AUG uses a standard Version 3 gearbox, which is the same as what AKs use, so there are plenty of parts to upgrade and make it better. Barrels and hops are all pretty standard across the board, so you can add and remove stuff as you like. The trigger thing I'd see as more of a con than a pro, a lot of CQB sites limit you to single shot only. They might get picky about you not having a solid fire selector, if you panic you might jam the trigger down and spray someone by accident. The mechanics of it are probably less reliable than a standard fire selector as well.

Otherwise - good choice.

The UAR is good all around, I know a few people who own them, my regular site started stocking them recently and they sell like hot cakes. Good performance from what I've heard, quite nice and compact and also very very light. Fully ambidextrous too, so great if you're a lefty.
It also takes standard M4 mags (as does the FN2000) and I think a V3 gearbox, as per the AUG, so again, easy to upgrade.

Again with the milsim events, with it not being a real gun, some full on events might not even allow it, as you sometimes have to use faction specific weapons, meaning a gun that doesn't exist in real life has no place in a mil-sim event. Though you could argue it's similar to an MSBS Radon.

Another good choice.

The G&G I don't know much about, I personally detest the look of them and think they're far too bulky. Having to pay extra for rails when the others come with them also seems a little daft and the price is a bit mad, it's pretty much only expensive because G&G are the only company to make one, and their numbers are limited. It's quite rare that you see them. But, G&G are amazingly good, so if you like it and can afford it, count it as another good choice.

I'm unsure of the gearbox it has so I can't comment on that, but it does have the quick change spring, I think the UAR does too...

As for other suggestions, have you considered an L85? They're a bit heavy for CQB but I manage with mine, you can get rails for them, they look amazing, take standard M4 mags and if you go for the ICS one, it's the easiest thing to dismantle in the universe, mine was the first gun I ever took apart, I taught myself every aspect of AEG engineering from it and now I've got it performing like a beast. Unique, bomb proof gearbox and as upgradable as any of the others. It can also fit a large type battery into it and comes with two high cap mags, so it's skirmish ready straight from the box.

 

[Maff-7777]

Thanks Ed, sounds good advice.

Do you know if some sites don't like guns with easy adjustable FPS (like the on the F2000).

I had looked into the L85 (the patriot within me) I bet they are pretty popular in the UK. What had put me off was the lack of rails but now I look around I see you can get a rail system for it.. although over £100, plus the gun comes in at £300 to start with. But metal body... nice.

So you think its a good gun for a beginner, easy to upgrade and modify. Plus good for Outdoor and QCB?

M.

 

[Tariq]

I have a G36 with a quick change spring. Not had any sites have any problems with it.

Same with my Gas guns, which have NPAS kits. I can easily change from 200-500fps in under a minute.

TM also do an AUG which is pretty good out the box

 

[Maff-7777]

Hi Guy, thanks for your advice. Good to know that guns with quick change springs or adjustable FPS aren't a problem at Uk site. I can't recall where I heard they were.

Shame the AUG A3 doesn't take standard mags. Again I'm new to airsoft but alrady I can see I'll need several mags and rigs to carry them in. So a standard type would be much better. So I think that's that AUG A3 out (shame as it looked so cool).

I'm a little worried about the UAR being so light. I understand that lighter is better, but I don't a gun that feels like a toy. I should have a bit of 'heft' to it you know?

The G&G F2000 seems a solid choice. Reviews I've watched/read seem to say it's great out of the box and solid built. It does look kinda odd at first. But once rails are on it looks so cool.

I'm liking the ICS L85 more and more. Really taken by it being made out of metal. Shoulds last me a good long time, just as well because it ain't cheap, even more so with the rails! One question it's not too long for QCB is it?

Thanks again for your advice guys.

M.

 

[Hubert]

No, the L85 shouldn't be a problem in CQB.

Like pretty much any carbine or rifle-sized weapon in CQB, provided you're careful (i.e, don't go running at doors like a fat guy runs at a cake shop with a 90% off sale), and you should be fine. I use mine at a CQB site, and aside from the occasional bump and scratch, it's fine.

It might be a good idea to see if you can get a hold of any of the guns you're interested in before you make your final decision. If possible, visit a store (like Patrol Base, Wolf or Combat South - depending on where you live) which let you hold and try out weapons.

I say this, because the FN-F2000 is a bit on the... "bulky" side of things. Believe me, the thing is much fatter than you'd imagine. Similarly, the weight of the L85 can be off-putting for some - you wouldn't want to have spent £350+ on a gun, only for you to find that it's really uncomfortable.

 

[Airsoft-Ed]

The ICS L85 has an adjustable spring too, it can be put into 1 of 3 settings which tend to differ by about 30fps each. Giving you a 90fps range to play with to help to meet different site fps requirements.

The fps canbe adjusted, or an entirely new spring fitted in under a minute, with no tools.

The gearbox needs to be removed to complete the process, but it's about as easy as unlocking and opening a door.

Like I said, mine was the first gun I ever worked on, I learned everything I know about AEGs from it and now I know it inside out, can open it up and swap parts out in a matter of minutes. Whole gun's a dream.

I cope fine in CQB with mine, only things annoying about it are that the sights are situated so high above the barrel, it can make it hard to quickly get shots off over the top of cover, and although the length isn't an issue, the weight can be. With optics, RIS, grip and Tac-light, mine is close to 5.5kg. Then when you consider having to carry magazines with it as well, a chest rig... The weight really adds up.

I think of airsoft as a way to keep fit, amongst other things, so I just see the weight as an added challenge to the workout. But if you're a more casual player, or quite small/light, you might struggle with it.

 

[Maff-7777]

Great adivce again. Cheers.

The F2000 and L85 I think are my clear favourites. I walk right past Wolf Armouries in London on my way too and from work so I'll have to pop in and see if they have them in stock to feel the weight, etc.

I do like the fact the L85 is mostly metal... should mean it can take a few knocks. I'm not the super fittest guy in the world, but I'm not a kid or unfit or anything. So I reckon I can take the weight. I'd rather have a hefty gun then something that feels like a Nerf gun.

Sounds like if I got new rails for the L85 and lower sites it would be a good gun for QCB. Then just swap out the scope and I can head outdoors! Nice.

M.

 

[Dan's Ark]

Thanks Ed, sounds good advice.

Do you know if some sites don't like guns with easy adjustable FPS (like the on the F2000).

I had looked into the L85 (the patriot within me) I bet they are pretty popular in the UK. What had put me off was the lack of rails but now I look around I see you can get a rail system for it.. although over £100, plus the gun comes in at £300 to start with. But metal body... nice.

So you think its a good gun for a beginner, easy to upgrade and modify. Plus good for Outdoor and QCB?

M.

Click to shrink...

Nope, I'd say M4/HK416 style weapons and G36s are more popular.

 

[bigshep]

I would like to throw another couple into the mix

real sword Type 97 and type 97b

both lovely guns, brilliantly made and perform out of the box really well. Only down side is a stupid battery. This can be rectified by either using a small lipo in the handle, or fitting a battery sling. I had a 97b for a year, and regret selling it, it was great. Built like a rock. I managed to fall on mine, and I am built like a very large outhouse made of marshmallow, after slipping on a bridge, and nothing happened to the gun at all.

I have recently purchased an APS UAR. Its a nice rifle. I'm not bothered about the fact its plastic, it feels nice an solid. I have had to modify the mag well a bit to accept mid caps, and have had to put a bit of tape in there as well to keep hicaps in the right position, but apart from that its a nice gun.

 

[Maff-7777]

Hmmm I have to admit the Type 97 doesn't grab me. I just don't like the look of it, same for AKs... I know, I know – this is coming from a man that thinks the F2000 looks nice.

I am tempted by the UAR, but I think the ICS L85 is winning at the moment. Mmmmm metal body.

m.

 

[Ian_Gere]

The F2000 looks entirely too similar to a P90 to be carried by a man of dignity and taste.

If you've got the money, the ICS L85 is the way forward.

 

[Spatch]

Don't go purely on pictures you can find, get yourself into a retailer and get them in your paws, something that may look nice in a picture may feel awful in your hands

FN2000 is a strange thing, its a big wide thing and I personally hate to hold them, L85 I used in service so just had to get used to it after the SLR but the ICS ones are very nice

I would have the 85 over the 2000 any day for airsoft

 

[Hubert]

I wouldn't rule anything out until you've done 3 things:

1)Actually held them

2)Seen what equipment you can fit to the guns

3)Looked at the price of the gun, magazines, battery and additional equipment you "need" or want. This is probably the biggest factor.

Although the AUG A3 doesn't take STANAGs - it does come with a railed handguard and 20mm optical rail. You don't have to do anything to allow the fitting of optics.

The L85 doesn't come with either. The the 19mm-to-20mm optics-rail converter will set you back between £18 and £40, depending on which one you go for. Although you can get the railed handguard (adding upwards of £130 to your total) - it doesn't need one. Both rails could be something you buy later. A fully kitted out L85 can cost around £500 (depending on where/how you source the parts). You don't have to go mental and buy it all right now, but remember that out of the box, it isn't as versatile as other weapons without modifications.

Depending on whether you get a bog-standard FN-F2000, or a modernised "tactical" version, you could be in the same situation as the L85 and have to buy additional parts to allow you to fit optics/grips/etc.

Let's take the AUG for example. While many are (understandably) critical of the AUG's use of non-standard magazines - this is not necessarily a problem. For now - getting your first gun - I wouldn't say that it's something to worry about. It's only a problem if you are intending on buying a STANAG-compliant weapon in the future (M4/16/L85/etc). However - unlike the L85, out of the box you can pretty much fit anything to the AUG. So, the £100 you saved by not buying the L85 could go into buying a really nice optic for your gun and a comfortable foregrip.

Seriously, don't rule anything out just yet. We can try to help you make a decision - but we shouldn't make it for you.

 

[Maff-7777]

Yes I think if you're gonna drop almost £200 on a gun you gotta hold it first. It's just that with the exception of the AUG A3, they all seem to be out of stock :-S

Although I'm planning to hopefully use this gun for a couple of years when I do get a new gun I'd like to take across mags, sights, etc. Rather then re-buy it all and mag pouches, etc. So the AUGs tricky mags is a bit off putting for me.

People really seem to dislike the F2000 don't they?

M.

 

[Hubert]

Thing is, while you'll lose out on mags, you won't lose out on additional extras, like sights and grips. And, like accessories, magazines don't all have to be bought at once. ICS guns come with 2 hi-cap magazines, so should you in the future decide to buy an ICS M4, at least you'd have 2 fully functional magazines when you start.

Speaking from my own perspective, the F2000 is just... bland. It doesn't really do anything better or worse than any other bullpups. The real-steel one does have some pretty big advantages- but in airsoft, the direction that spent shell cases are ejected is completely irrelevant.

I think that it was much bulkier than I expected, and a lot of the controls were in strange places compared to what I'm used to. And it's just so fat, I mean Jesus, it's like carrying a bloody cat around with you.

I'm not sure how everyone else feels, but the F2000 for me is just lacking that "thing" that grabs my attention. The L85 is a "Marmite gun" - but the F2000 is not. I neither love it nor hate it. It's like the Milton Keynes of guns - it's just there.

 

[Maff-7777]

Decisions, decisions. I've really got to get my hands on these guns to get a feel for them. I've heard that botht e G&G F2000 and ICS L85 are really good guns and fire well out of the box. And both look great 'once' you put rails on them.

One review said the selector swithc on the L85 is a little tricky to reach in the heat of the moment. But I think it's metal contruction is really appealing. I tend to drop stuff you see.

m.

 

[Ian_Gere]

ICS guns come with 2 hi-cap magazines, so should you in the future decide to buy an ICS M4, at least you'd have 2 fully functional magazines when you start.

Click to shrink...

4

And it's just so fat, I mean Jesus, it's like carrying a bloody cat around with you.

Click to shrink...

:lol: A nasty animatronic freakazoid cat!

 

[Hubert]

Decisions, decisions. I've really got to get my hands on these guns to get a feel for them. I've heard that botht e G&G F2000 and ICS L85 are really good guns and fire well out of the box. And both look great 'once' you put rails on them.

One review said the selector swithc on the L85 is a little tricky to reach in the heat of the moment. But I think it's metal contruction is really appealing. I tend to drop stuff you see.

m.

Click to shrink...

Practice makes perfect I guess. The more you use it, the more acquainted you'll become with the controls. The one thing about the F2000's controls I really did not like was the mag-release. Seemed awkward to me. But like I said, use it a lot and it should become like second nature to you.

TBH, I like the look of the L85 both with and without rails. If you do decide to get one, I'd suggest grabbing the optics rail converter at the same time. That way you have more options than a SUSAT or iron sights (both of which I find to be completely and utterly useless in CQB). The handguard rail isn't as essential.

If you're worried about dropping stuff, I'd suggest getting a sling. You can usually pick up a generic 3-point sling in a surplus store.

4

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Really? My L85 and Carbine came with 2 each, I assumed it was the same for everything else ICS did. But still, point remains, if he does wish to buy a STANAG compliant gun in the future, if he goes with ICS (or possibly G&G), he'll at least start more than one mag.

:lol: A nasty animatronic freakazoid cat!

Click to shrink...

We get some odd cats in London...

 

[Ian_Gere]

Really? My L85 and Carbine came with 2 each, I assumed it was the same for everything else ICS did. But still, point remains, if he does wish to buy a STANAG compliant gun in the future, if he goes with ICS (or possibly G&G), he'll at least start more than one mag.

We get some odd cats in London...

Click to shrink...

I meant 2 with an ICS L85 now and another two if he bought an ICS M4 later.

Yeah, I've heard them called "cats" before, but I reckon they're mutant radioactive rats from the drains around the nuclear reactor at the Admiralty Greenwich - they've evolved intelligence and used cybernetics to overcome the debilitating mutations and enhance their super-powers - they prey on alligators mainly!