Mostly Retired Moderators L3wisD Posted February 7, 2018 Mostly Retired Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2018 I wouldn't say it's cost effective, depending on the length of the barrel you need, it could be £55+ which is going to be 25% of the cost of your gun which can be hard to justify. I'd say Start with the hop up rubber, as the Prometheus Purple will be a very noticeable upgrade compared to the standard Nuprol. Then try the prowin chamber. If you don't notice much of a difference between the prowin and the standard chamber, you can still sell the Prowin on second hand and not lose too much on it. Then you're only down £10-12 on the rubber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Unless the original barrel is tragically crap, then you are far better off spending your money elsewhere. Although in this case the barrel the Defender comes with is a tragically crap '6.03`( possibly, in places) aluminium tube. Not quite sure what is going on if you've seen a doubling in your rate of fire going from 7.4v lipo to 9.6v NiMh. The 9.6v may offer fractionally higher ROF when fully charged, but it soon sags and is comprehensively outperformed by the lipo. Crane stocks are make by the thousands and are cheap. That's why your Nuprol has one, not because it was designed around the fact the stock is a good fit around a NiMh battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Samurai Posted February 7, 2018 Supporters Share Posted February 7, 2018 Back to the battery. All batteries have a C rating. That means it can give a current of C rating times capacity. For example an 1000mAh battery with a C rating of 25 gives 1000*25mA = 25A on its nominal voltage. Higher voltage, higher ROF. But if the motor (and setup) you have in the gun needs more current, then the voltage drops. So if your gun needs 35A to run with a good fps, the voltage will drop a lot, possibly so low that the motor doesn't even start. If the voltage can still turn the motor then on a very low FPS. Quite probably that's what you experienced. Sorry if this has been answered already, I just skimmed the latest posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Even a 1200 mAh 7.4v lipo would need a C rating lower than a asthmatic hamster on an exercise bike to drop the of fire that far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters Samurai Posted February 7, 2018 Supporters Share Posted February 7, 2018 Bad wiring, bad shimming and or upgraded motor or some other reason of increased load can result insufficient current -> voltage drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Readman97 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 On 07/02/2018 at 1:16 PM, Samurai said: Bad wiring, bad shimming and or upgraded motor or some other reason of increased load can result insufficient current -> voltage drop. Its all stock internals, i don't think the stock high torque motor requires a lot of current, i know the high speed motors demand a lot more, i think its just the higher voltage spinning the motor faster, its a 1600mah 10C 9.6v battery so i reckon the motor doesn't require too much current to operate. I was mainly just concerned the extra voltage may cause an FPS increase, i chrono'd recently at 348fps so pretty close to the limit lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 A 1600mAh NiMh might have 9.6(ish)v if you check it with meter, but as soon as you put a load on it EG pull the trigger, that voltage will sag to equal or less than a 7.4v lipo, and that sag will get worse as it discharges. Hence the reason some of us are having trouble getting our heads around the idea that going from lipo to NiMh has made a significant difference. Unless your lipo batteries were faulty in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scalawag Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Why not post some pics of the 2 batteries so that we can see what you are using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Readman97 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 21 minutes ago, scalawag said: Why not post some pics of the 2 batteries so that we can see what you are using? top to bottom 1600 mah 15c 9.6v NiMH 1300 mah 7.4v 20c LiPO 1450 mah 7.4v 30 nun chuck LiPO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scalawag Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Thanks that helps us all to see what you are talking about. I have used both NiMh and LiPo batteries now for a good number of years, both in airsoft and Radio Control vehicles. In my opinion either of those LiPo batteries should out perform or at least equal the NiMh battery in the pics. Although Nuprol would probably not be my first choice for LiPos. I get my batteries from here: https://www.componentshop.co.uk/batteries/airsoft/li-po-packs/74v.html I am using these at the moment which are superb quality and value for money. https://www.componentshop.co.uk/7-4v-2000mah-20c-continuous-discharge-airsoft-lipo-split-pack.html I would never use a company that produce lots of different airsoft gear, like Nuprol, for batteries. They probably buy them in as cheaply as possible before branding them as Nuprol, meaning there is no guarantee of quality. I would always recommend using a company that specialise in batteries primarily and has built a reputation selling them, as the production quality of batteries can vary wildly, and price is not always a sign of quality. A good battery does not have to cost the earth, but a bad one might cost you a lot. Not all LiPo batteries are equal even if they say on the outside that they are. How you look after them can affect the performance too. A couple more questions. How are you charging the the LiPos, what charger? what settings on the charger? again pics could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Readman97 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, scalawag said: Thanks that helps us all to see what you are talking about. I have used both NiMh and LiPo batteries now for a good number of years, both in airsoft and Radio Control vehicles. In my opinion either of those LiPo batteries should out perform the NiMh battery in the pics. Although Nuprol would probably not be my first choice for LiPos. I get my batteries from here: https://www.componentshop.co.uk/batteries/airsoft/li-po-packs/74v.html I am using these at the moment which are superb quality and value for money. https://www.componentshop.co.uk/7-4v-2000mah-20c-continuous-discharge-airsoft-lipo-split-pack.html I would never use a company that produce lots of different airsoft gear like Nuprol for batteries. They probably buy them in as cheaply as possible before branding them as Nuprol, meaning there is no guarantee of quality. I would always recommend using a company that specialise in batteries primarily and has built a reputation selling them, as the production quality of batteries can vary wildly, and price is not always a sign of quality. A good battery does not have to cost the earth, but a bad one might cost you a lot. Not all LiPo batteries are equal. A couple more questions. How are you charging the the LiPos, what charger? what settings on the charger? again pics could help. Using the nuprol lipo3 charger, got it cheap as got it with the gun so can't complain. Think i got it for about a tenner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scalawag Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Some smart chargers like the one you have are ok, but they don't allow you much control over how the battery is being charged, and they usually don't have the ability to discharge or cycle (fully discharge and then recharge) a battery which is not necessarily needed for LiPos but can help keep them at peak performance. For me the go to charger for any type of battery is really the iMax B6 or any of the clones of it that are about. I use the Turnigy Accucel 6 which is really just a clone of the Imax B6. Google iMax B6 and you should find one at a reasonable price, you can even buy them on amazon. Just be aware that the cheaper ones may also need an external power source to run them but you can also buy versions with a built in power supply You will have to learn how to use it, but your batteries will thank you for it. Back to your LiPo performance issues, I would think that given the batteries in question and the charger you have been using that your LiPo batteries are knackered, and not providing anywhere near the performance that they should. I think, in common with what others have already said, you will find that the NiMh battery will perform well when fully charged but will quickly start to loose performance as you use it. Thats not to say you couldn't use it, they have been used quite happily in airsoft for years and still are by lots of people. I would suggest a new charger though, whichever type of battery you decide to use. The B6 type chargers will also allow you a lot more control over how you charge and/or discharge NiMh too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Readman97 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 11 minutes ago, scalawag said: Some smart chargers like the one you have are ok, but they don't allow you much control over how the battery is being charged, and they usually don't have the ability to discharge or cycle (fully discharge and then recharge) a battery which is not necessarily needed for LiPos but can help keep them at peak performance. For me the go to charger for any type of battery is really the iMax B6 or any of the clones of it that are about. I use the Turnigy Accucel 6 which is really just a clone of the Imax B6. Google it and you should find one at a reasonable price, you can even buy them on amazon. Just be aware that the cheaper ones may also need an external power source to run them but you can also buy versions with a built in power supply You will have to learn how to use it, but your batteries will thank you for it. Back to your LiPo performance issues, I would think that given the batteries in question and the charger you have been using that your LiPo batteries are knackered, and not providing anywhere near the performance that they should. I think, in common with what others have already said, you will find that the NiMh battery will perform well when fully charged but will quickly start to loose performance as you use it. Thats not to say you couldn't use it, they have been used quite happily in airsoft for years and still are by lots of people. I would suggest a new charger though, whichever type of battery you decide to use. The B6 type chargers will also allow you a lot more control over how you charge and/or discharge NiMh too. I don't think my batteries are buggered, that nun chuck lipo is only 5-6 games old, i just think the motor doesn't draw enough current to cause issue with the NiMH, they were advertised as 10c but the cells are actually 15c so that's a peak output of 24A? That would be a lot of current for such a small motor, a lot of brushed motor drills don't even draw that and they're 5-6 times the size , i think its just working overtime from the voltage increase on the NiMH, seems to be working well for now, ill report back after the next game for a proper performance comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scalawag Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Well looking at both of the LiPos they have a peak output in excess of what you are saying The NiMh battery has ( 1300mAh has 20c 26A constant output and can supply 40c 52A peak the 1450mAh is rated even higher). The NiMh batteries voltage output will drop noticably under load, the LiPo much less so and certainly not so that you would notice it. Over all these LiPos should provide performance equivalent to, or slightly better than the NiMh that you have pictured. If the LiPos aren't doing that then that strongly suggests that they are faulty in some way. Their age or previous use is not necessarily an indicator of the health of the battery. Knowing a bit about how these different battery chemistries work, and discharge their stored power is essential to understanding why a 7.4v battery can deliver similar or better performance to a 9.6v battery. You might find this site an interesting read: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/ People usually move from NiMh to LiPo, presumably because of the performance improvement, but hey what ever works for you. Good luck with your testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Readman97 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 On 06/02/2018 at 8:00 PM, L3wisD said: By all means. Bung a Prometheus EG 6.03 Barrel in it (choosing the right length for your gun): https://eagle6.co.uk/shop/catalog/product/view/id/890/s/laylax-prometheus-6-03mm-eg-inner-barrel-247mm/ Change your rubber to a Prometheus Purple https://eagle6.co.uk/shop/catalog/product/view/id/318/s/laylax-prometheus-hop-up-rubber-nub-soft-purple/ And the hop up to a Prowin: http://airsoftzone.co.uk/hop-up-chambers-and-rubbers/cnc-m4-hop-up-chamber-for-marui-type-aeg-prowin And you'll be laughing. Looking at the rubber, what is the nub for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostly Retired Moderators L3wisD Posted February 8, 2018 Mostly Retired Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2018 The nub is the part that sits in the hop up arm and pushes down on the outside of the rubber. This then pushes the internal nub down onto your BB. Then there's flat and R Hop set ups which take more work.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 The nub is what the hop arm actually pushes down onto the hop rubber to make it protrude into the window in the barrel. By the time you've bought the barrel, hop and hop up you've spent over half what the gun cost in the first place. Given the cost of the gun versus the performance improvement with those parts, you can get 95% of the way there for less than half the money. ZCI 6.02 Stainless steel barrel, SHS Prowin style plastic hop up unit (this is actually better than the Prowin) and a Modify Soft Flat Hop and nub. This will hop 0.28g BBs with ease, and consistently. I use those Nuprol batteries, and they consistently kick the butt of bigger capacity NiMh batteries than the one you have. If however you've run them to the point the rate of fire has dropped that low, if they weren't buggered before, they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mostly Retired Moderators L3wisD Posted February 8, 2018 Mostly Retired Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2018 I had terrible results with the plastic prowin copy. Would not stay in place for love not money. It'd soon wind off until no hop was applied. The metal prowin copies are great though. But maybe I had a bad one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Readman97 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 Just now, L3wisD said: I had terrible results with the plastic prowin copy. Would not stay in place for love not money. It'd soon wind off until no hop was applied. The metal prowin copies are great though. But maybe I had a bad one. I may just invest in a better gun, a CYMA or G&G, I've heard of a lot of issues with TM M4s though so may steer away from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Readman97 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 6 minutes ago, L3wisD said: I had terrible results with the plastic prowin copy. Would not stay in place for love not money. It'd soon wind off until no hop was applied. The metal prowin copies are great though. But maybe I had a bad one. I have a good bit of budget, so what would you recommend for a new gun? Preferably full metal receiver and rails, good ROF, good trigger response, solid 340-350fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Check out Specna Arms, G&P for excellent externals and solid internals with good upgrade potential while still performing well out of the box. ICS is also a good choice. If you're less inclined to tinker then get a Krytac. I don't know where you've heard of issues with TM guns, but if you have the budget they're excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporters ImTriggerHappy Posted February 8, 2018 Supporters Share Posted February 8, 2018 Ics or TM best out the box at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Readman97 Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 On 08/02/2018 at 6:23 PM, ImTriggerHappy said: Ics or TM best out the box at the moment. Any particular models you recommend?? Ideally 16" - 20" barrel, full metal construction, quad rail, up around 350fps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangtight Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Don't get hung up on a long barrel. Anything over about 200mm and it makes absolutely no difference to the range or accuracy. In fact barrels the length you want will be too long for the available cylinder volume when using heavy BBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCAR_Jester Posted February 16, 2018 Share Posted February 16, 2018 @Readman97 This may be the boring choice, but after reviewing this thread for a few minutes and seeing your various questions it's clear that you don't know a lot or very little about gun internals and in a recent post wanted "long barrel, metal, quad rails" seen on about 60% of all guns making that part irrelevant and should more focus on internals. Now this isn't a bad thing, you may just be new enough to airsoft that you're still at the plug and play stage - some poeple don't leave this and that's fine also. I would suggest you perhaps learn a little about the inside of your gun, learn how each part works and it's purpose. Why people suggest certain parts, why some parts are boycotted or even guns as a whole. This is an excellent parts list inside each gun with brand recommendations with short descriptions https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/29h0sw/recommended_brandsparts_list/ It's a good read when you learn the names of each part. Doing this will help you make solid reasoning for changing any parts like the barrel, hop-rubbers, motors and how batteries work, without making jump to conclusion claims or assumptions based on word of mouth from other airsofters on fields. The lengthy part will most likely be not what is good but the WHY it is good, like why my 4" barrel can hit targets further than my friend's 10" Listen to tech forums over airsofters on the field, 9/10 they're talking bs unless they're a tech. It'll take time, lot's of it and you may get bored but I would highly suggest some research into what are quality airsoft parts. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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